do you believe this part of the bible

by joanne_ 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Hellrider

  But when it comes to believe in God it is built on no proof at all,

  It`s called "faith".

  We have biblical writings that declare how merciful and loving God is, but we can't point to single historical event that is provable to back it up.

  There are countless stories of such things. The jewish woman that survived the gas chamber in 1943. The stewardess that survived an aircrash, falling from 10 000 feet, and survived, while all the others died. Of course, the question is: Why did all the others die. And the answer to that is "God works in mysterious ways". A weak and unsatisfying answer. But to many, it is sufficient. It`s called faith.
• 

  Balsam

  Hellrider,

  I too have wondered about these miracles when people survive when no one else does. Is this a proof of an unseen God though? I have read the books called Small Miracles. The thing is, there seems to be something more than concidence going on but what is it and does its consideration lead to God? Does it point to a singular God, or does it point to something else? I have no answers, just thoughts. If we are not the ones who experience these small miracles, what good are they to us? It is a very personal experience to have something extra-ordinary thing happen to them. But does that point to the a correct perception of the God of the Bible, or Allah, or God's and Goddesses exisiting. Still the proof is lacking? Faith should have some secure foundation based in proof and reason. I believe that there is something more and spiriutality is possible for those of us who ask questions. But we are not quick to accept unquestioningly what ever a book written by men tells us about the Universe.

  Good thoughts though.

  Balsam
• 

  Narkissos

  Perhaps (just perhaps) part of the answer is that only the survivor is able to speak, think, wonder, and write...
• 

  daystar

  I have not read this thread, but in direct answer to the question you pose... no.
• 

  Hellrider

  Balsam:

  If we are not the ones who experience these small miracles, what good are they to us? It is a very personal experience to have something extra-ordinary thing happen to them. But does that point to the a correct perception of the God of the Bible, or Allah, or God's and Goddesses exisiting.

  Very true.

  Faith should have some secure foundation based in proof and reason

  Then it wouldn`t be faith. But I understand your point. This questions are seen most clearly whenever you attend a funeral. I`ve had to bury both my parents. They were both crappy parents, and part of me hated them, for the JW-upbringing (and all that), so I still haven`t had to bury a loved one. If I ever did, I don`t think there would be an ounce of faith left in me. A friend of my sister just died, at age 29, from a drug overdose. She`ll be buried on thursday. When I think about her mother, and the agony she`s going thru, I can truly understand how someone would not only curse God, but loose all belief they ever had, in his existence (and this is probably where mbd tells us to read the book of Job...). I can`t even imagine how it must be to lose a child. That must truly be a personal Armageddon.

  But we are not quick to accept unquestioningly what ever a book written by men tells us about the Universe.

  I can understand that. However, I believe that if there is a God, he revealed himself thru Jesus Christ. I`ve read the Quran, and didn`t find it very impressive ( I know that could be "cultural bias" - and the politically correct can call me racist and all that, ha ha). I`m in the process of rereading the NT now, and I don`t think I ever thought about how many of the people Jesus healed (...if...he did..) that were "posessed by demons"). He`s doing that all over the place. And I wonder how many of those were epileptic, autistic, mentally challenged, insane...etc. It`s hard to be an educated person in 2005, reading the Bible...
• 

  mdb

  Yeah, mbd, relax on the threats, will you, he just said his opinion about the Bible. No need to threaten with eternal hellfire just for that.

  Show me where I said anything about "hellfire". I re-read my posting and don't recall seeing that word or refering to the idea in any way. You can't simple add to what I said and then get upset about some ficticious comment you or the guy before you put in my mouth.
• 

  Hellrider

  My apologies. I just assumed that these infidels had something horrible in store for them, as you said:

  God created you and regardless of what you conclude about the existence of God or what you do in this life, one day you too will have to stand before His judgement seat and give an account. It's a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

  So I assumed that if it`s a "dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God", at least it wouldn`t be a cool experience. My apologies if you didn`t mean hellfire, but in stead meant "eternal damnation", "eternal absent from God", or whatever. This is not a good place to come to preach.
• 

  Balsam

  Hellrider you said: When I think about her mother, and the agony she`s going thru, I can truly understand how someone would not only curse God, but loose all belief they ever had, in his existence...........

  People like your friend and me besides many others lose children to death constantly. Sometimes more than one child at a time dies. If God is interested in life here on this planet then I simply don't see it in evidence around me. The earth and the life on it was set into motion and then pretty much left to themselves to figure it out. Oh we have some words of wisdom in holy books, but they also have a lot nonsense in those same holy books. There is faith based on knowledge and experience, then there is blind faith which has no foundation and which is called blind faith. Can we just say I believe in God just because? Why should another person believe and have faith in that which is not in evidence? I know faith in the idea of God is a comfort to folks, because this life is so unpredictable and uncertain. But again to what can we point that gives us absolute proof of a divine being who loves and cares about human kind.

  We can point to Jesus but there isn't even any historical evidence that he did and said the things in scripture. We have the NT which even the earliest book was written probably around 35 years after his death. Can we put confidence in those writing by people who were likely forgotten some it with the passing of time. And yes Holy Spirit was suppose to come over these followers of Jesus and guard the world and inspire the writer. Again where is the proof? Or the men like Paul who never even met Jesus, but expounds passionately on him and what Jesus taught. My point is the God of the Bible is all powerful, all knowing, all good, all merciful, all punishing yet he has not shown generations of humans nothing since Jesus that we can lay hold of and say yes here is the proof. Why is that? Could it be that the God as the bible as protrayed doesn't exsist? I don't know, but these question constantly crop up and causes me to take a step back and wonder. Like everyone I am still searching for answers, and while I do I think of my sweet faced son who died tragically at 15 through no fault of his own. Killed by another JW boy in our congregation. Personally I feel God is accountable to us as you may think we are to him. I have a belief that there is something special about the Universe but I don't know what it is. It is a very flexible belief that can be adjusted as new evidence comes in. Maybe one day we will really know, maybe we won't.

  People don't have to believe in a God to live good ethical lives that bring happiness and joy and do no harm to others. Religion is not necessary to give us guildlines. We know what makes us happy and we know what makes others happy. If we show our fellow humans love then all the rest will follow. That is how I see it.
• 

  TopHat

  Jesus gave his human life so that we may have everlasting life....I ask: Where and when is this everlasting Life going to take place? It has been over 2000 years since Jesus gave his human Life.
• 

  Hellrider

  Balsam:

  I am still searching for answers, and while I do I think of my sweet faced son who died tragically at 15 through no fault of his own. Killed by another JW boy in our congregation

  God, that`s just horrible. My condolences. You managed to live thru that, I can`t even imagine the strength that took. I can`t even imagine what it would be like to lose a child. My son is 3 years old. I don`t even dare to think that something could happen to him. Experiencing what you did, there`s absolutely no wonder you feel the way you do, about religion.

  The way I see it, is: IF there is a God, he must be perfect, and obviously higher ethical standars than myself. He wouldn`t be a god that is jealous, vindictive, a god that demands that his "children" worship him constantly. We don`t even demand that of our own children, and in a sense, we created them. I expect my child to obey me, yes, at least on some crucial points (don`t run into the street, kid, there`s a car coming) and until a certain age (eh...5 ?)...but worship? Nooo. And I would expect a God to be of no lower ethical standards than myself, to say the least. I am perfectly and painfully aware though, that the God I am here describing, is probably not the God of the Bible, certainly not the OT, and probably not the NT.

  People don't have to believe in a God to live good ethical lives that bring happiness and joy and do no harm to others

  Agreed. Actually, I think people who are not religious, but still live good ethical lives, are more admirable than religious people, who try to live ethically right on the basis of reward/punishment. If the only thing that made me not go out and rape, steal and murder, was the threat of eternal damnation and/or eternal hellfire and/or eternal non-existence, that wouldn`t mean I was a good person, would it? In discussions with JWs, they often use this "well, if there is no God or no true religion, then there is no point in not living like a sinner, is it? Well, then you can live in drunkeness, fornication, adultery, etc..." - statements that really say more about their own personal, level of ethical awareness, than it does about religion. Abscense of religion isn`t the same as nihilism.

  In the words of the scottish philosopher David Hume, in the 18th century: "Whenever I meet a christian, I instinctively suspect him of being evil".