LOOKING FOR LOVE
Once upon a time you fell in love, got married and settled down for life, but not anymore. We're now hopping from one relationship to another and nearly a quarter of us live alone - a huge increase since the 1950s. Three-quarters of young people now believe in living together before marriage, and half of them split up before they reach the altar. Research shows we still want to tie the knot but we just can't make it happen. So why?
JENNY BROCKIE: Tonight Insight ask’s men and women what they really want from one another. But first, Shaun Hoyt with some blokes who aren't too happy, with all this change. THE BLOKES’ STORY: REPORTER: Shaun Hoyt Isaac Lesko enjoys the single life. He's not short of dates or girlfriends, but he's 27 and feels the pressure to find a partner. Isaac reckons the job is made harder because greater independence for women has brought greater contradictions. ISAAC LESKO: What a woman says and what she wants are two different things and trying to read what's going on between them is confusing. ELIAS KHOUZAME: We've never known what women wanted and how to satisfy them and now, you know, you've got that extra hurdle. Elias Khouzame, a young lawyer, agrees - women are confusing. Even the rules of dating have become unclear. ELIAS KHOUZAME: Before I think it was a bit easier. You know, I'd like to think - I'd like to hope I was living 50 years back. You've got to buy flowers, you take her out to dinner, you open the door, you treat her well and, you know, she does what you want. But now it's you can do all those things and she might not be satisfied. She'd be like, oh, you know, you're sucking up or, you know, you're treading on my toes. So it's just more confusing. ANTHONY PETRAZZUOLO: I think it's extremely more complicated like compared to 30, 40 years ago, it was very clear-cut what was expected of a man and a woman. They had their roles to follow. Anthony Petrazzuolo says finding a partner today is complicated by mixed messages from women. ANTHONY PETRAZZUOLO: They say they want a truly 50/50 relationship but deep down what they really want is the man to take control and if they want that man to be the one who's going to take the bullet in the middle of the night when a stranger knocks on the door, then really what they're saying is that they're not really sure what they want, you know. So if deep down they want one thing but they're saying another thing, that is the mixed message. ELIAS KHOUZAME: I think a lot of guys don't know how to cope with that because it's like make up your mind, you know. Do you want to stand on your feet, do you want to be independent, do you want to be, you know, me to treat you equally or do you want me to be the man and support you and do all the things that are expected of a man? ISAAC LESKO: I think a lot of women want, you know, the things that their parents had out of life or what the fairytale is, you know, to get married and have children I think later in life but I think it's certainly still there. Where they say they don't want that, they say they want their career first and those types of things and marriage - we'll deal with that another time. But eventually down the track, very shortly down the track, it comes up in the relationship at some stage. And that's something very interesting. Norman Meredith had a relationship that's broken down. He's trying to work out why. Women, he says, expect a lot. NORMAN MEREDITH: The contradiction is they expect men to have very good communication skills but to be maybe like their girlfriends but then, at the same time, they want the man to be tough and provide security. ANTHONY PETRAZZUOLO: Some women want it all and that's the problem. If they want it all they can't really have it all, you know. At some stage there's got to be a balance and if there is no balance there will be repercussions with their prospective partner or future husband. NORMAN MEREDITH: They don't need to compromise anymore and women will often say that I'm not reliant on a man for money and they'll say that quite strongly. And so they can make their own way in the world. ISAAC LESKO: I think that all women feel they need to portray this, you know, independent woman, chasing their career, if that's the right thing, the whole 'Sex and the City' thing, which is fine, you know, but in the last episode of the 'Sex and the City' most of them ended up alone or trying to chase that one special person. I think that everyone wants the one special person. JENNY BROCKIE: A bit of a reaction in here to all of that. Charlotte any sympathy for these blokes? CHARLOTTE HOGAN: OhWHERE do I start? I wouldn't say sympathy. Look, I can understand some of their sentiments. I do believe that gender distinctions have become a lot more blurred and women are becoming upwardly more mobile, we're thinking more for ourselves, we're becoming independent, we've got our careers. We don't have to depend on a man. JENNY BROCKIE: Now, you're a doctor and you've described your apartment as a version of 'Sex and the City' to our researchers. But is Isaac right, that behind all of that, what you really want is a bloke? CHARLOTTE HOGAN: I wouldn't say all that I really want is a bloke. Like I said, I certainly, at the end of the day, I look down the track and I think of myself being married with kids and I look forward to that. But up until now, I haven't been actively seeking that. I haven't felt the need to actively seek that. As I said, I've forged a career, I am financially independent, I have a fantastic life without being necessarily in a relationship and so until someone, you know, pretty spectacular comes along, I'll stay that way. JENNY BROCKIE: Libby, one of the blokes we just heard from in that piece, Norman, with the book, was your boyfriend. Now, it sounds like he might have thought you expected a bit much. Did you? LIBBY WARREN: Um, I have high expectations, absolutely. This is a very important thing. This is the person you're going to potentially spend the rest of your life with. So, yes, I do have high expectations and I think women by the time they reach their early 30s, we do have a very strong idea of what we want and what we don't want. JENNY BROCKIE: And, Norman, what's your response to that? That's fair enough, isn't it? NORMAN MEREDITH: My response is it's ironic that when women get to their 30s, are getting fussy and yet their marketability in the relationship market has gone down considerably. Men want two things from relationships - they want youth and beauty and all the research that I have read suggests that and the trouble is... WOMAN: I think there are plenty of men who would disagree with what you've just said. Men and women who would disagree with what you've just said about what men are looking for in relationships. JENNY BROCKIE: Well, what do the blokes think? Is that what you're after? Youth and beauty? MAN: No, no, not at all. I think someone who actually wants to be part of a functional team with you and build towards life goals is probably foremost on my list. JENNY BROCKIE: Do you think women are getting fussier about what they want from men, pickier? MAN: I think that to love someone, to get into a relationship with someone, you've got to really suspend all of your self-preservation instincts. If you're going to give up some of your career, even a little bit of your career, you're basically making yourself a little bit vulnerable and you're trusting that person with your heart and with your livelihood, that they're not going to take advantage of the fact that you've made yourself a little bit vulnerable. WOMAN: Can I ask a question, urgently? Are you single? I'm thinking he's going to go home with a woman. JENNY BROCKIE: Yes. NORMAN MEREDITH: I just wanted to add the other side to my story which is the reason that a lot of these women in their 30s aren't partnering up is because they themselves are professionals and they expect their men to be better-educated, to be taller, to have more wealth, to have all these wonderful things and, because they're already so high up, there are very few men that can meet that benchmark and, because these women are happy to stay single, they disappear, they retire to the suburbs, they get their two cats, their big house, their backyard and they disappear from the relationship scene. JENNY BROCKIE: Pru. PRU GOWARD, SEX DISCRIMINATION COMMISSIONER: We're talking about a very small group of women here. I mean, 90% of women earn less than $50,000 a year. So the group that you're talking about, I wouldn't have said would explain any of the demographic difference. I agree that the issue is a relationship that's trusting, you're both very vulnerable in a relationship and you want someone to be in a team with and I can't imagine men looking for youth and beauty alone. MAN: Can I just add, I've got three friends, close friends who all earn less than their wives and they do the cleaning, they do the laundry, they do the cooking, they take the daughter to basketball and they take on that role so that their wife can spend more time at work. JENNY BROCKIE: Charlotte. CHARLOTTE HOGAN: I just would like to contest that as well about looking for someone who is more professional and wealthier than me. And I would agree, I am just looking for someone who shares the same interests as me and who wants to go forward in life with me and is actually willing to commit. The C-word. JENNY BROCKIE: Now, is that a key issue? Is that part of the reason you can't find someone? Is it because you're not ready yet and you don't want to settle down? CHARLOTTE HOGAN: You meet them at the wrong time in their lives, they've just broken up or they're, you know, they've just come back from overseas and they want to, you know, have a bit of fun. There is always something. PHIL DYE, AUTHOR: But that's a very rational way of looking at love. I mean, love is a thing that's out of control. It's chaotic and it defies rationality and if you've got a check-box of things that you're after you'll possibly never find that. And you mentioned the word 'special' and if you're after someone who's special and if special means perfect, and all the tick-boxes are checked, there is very little chance it's going to be found. MICHAEL WILKINS: That is exactly right. And you've said yourself that you are not willing to settle for anybody. So clearly you have those criteria set out somewhere. CHARLOTTE HOGAN: Not just settle for anybody, just not - if I don't connect with someone - because a lot of girls will be with someone just for the sake of having a boyfriend. I know a lot of girls who are like that. So they can depend on someone and they feel loved and I'm saying that I don't need that. I want someone in my life but I'm not going to have someone in my life just for the sake of having someone in my life unless I've truly connected with them. And I don't have a criteria. I don't have my boxes that I tick. I call it the X factor. You just connect with someone and that's hard. JENNY BROCKIE: Do men feel that women do have these boxes they tick at the moment? MAN 2: Absolutely. Especially the younger women. JENNY BROCKIE: OK, Sam. SAM SAUNDERS: I mean, there's a check-box of... It's not something that women will admit to or talk about necessarily. But there's certainly, you know, potentially it's the car, the house, sort of the life they can provide for the lady, for your wife when the kids start happening and that sort of thing. There's certainly a lifestyle they certainly want to preserve. If they're used to a certain lifestyle, you don't want to take a step down. And I think that also goes into intellectually. If you're a doctor you may not connect - you may not want to go out with a plumber, for example. Even though he might be the greatest guy in the world, maybe that for you is a bit of a step down. JENNY BROCKIE: Is that true? Charlotte, would you...? CHARLOTTE HOGAN: I haven't been out with a plumber, I've been out with an electrician. JENNY BROCKIE: But is that an issue for you? I mean, consciously or subconsciously is that an issue for you in making a choice? That you want somebody around the same income level or around the same education level as you? CHARLOTTE HOGAN: I can honestly say no, because that is something that has come with getting a little bit older is realising that that's not what it's all about and being a little bit more flexible with those kind of ideas. REBECCA HUNTLEY, AUTHOR: I wanted to say something about check lists. I mean, it was interesting in my early 20s I really - because I was involved in politics and I was doing law, well, I thought I need a political lawyer and he needed to be taller than me, needed to have all these things. And that didn't go very well because normally politicians and lawyers aren't actually fun to be with most of the time. And then I actually found myself single in my late 20s and I met - I kind of opened my eyes a little bit and thought, well, you know, it hasn't been really going well with this checklist that I've got and I fell in love with an engineer, of all things. Now, you'd understand that engineers weren't normally who we talked to at university, and we got engaged in two months and we're getting married in six weeks. JENNY BROCKIE: So throwing away the checklist was a good idea? I think throwing away the checklist... REBECCA HUNTLEY: In the end it's not about what they do or how much they earn, he does earn more than me, which is nice, but it's absolutely not essential. In the end it's about how they make you feel. JENNY BROCKIE: Before we go on, before we leave this idea of checklists, are you guys saying you don't have checklists? Sam. SAM SAUNDERS: The example of this is that, you know, I fully believe I can speak for all the guys in the room, we don't care, we don't care what a girl does for a living. We could not care less what you did for a living. If you're ambitious, you're driven, whatever turns you on, like for me I would like a girl who's ambitious and driven in some way. I don't care what that is. If she's a P.A. who wants to be the best P.A. in the world, that's great. Whereas, in reverse, I can speak potentially on behalf of the ladies here, that may not be the case, that you don't care what we do for a living. I mean, it is part of you. But if we're intelligent, driven, nice lovely guys, isn't that enough? JENNY BROCKIE: Well, you're single, Sam. How many women have you dated in the last 18 months? SAM SAUNDERS: Um, probably around 20, 25, 30. 20, 25. JENNY BROCKIE: And why is that, Sam? SAM SAUNDERS: Most of the dates last maybe, anywhere between one date and maybe three or four. JENNY BROCKIE: Why? SAM SAUNDERS: Well, usually what happens is for a great proportion of them, you know, it's the wrong time, the timing's wrong, I've got issues to deal with - not me, the girl. And often, you know, and this is something that, you know, Charlotte sort of touched on before and this is kind of supporting Norman for a little bit here with the youth thing. If I dated a 23-year-old girl, she's going to be less emotionally scarred, generally speaking, than a 30-year-old girl. Now, that's not a problem except when you get a 30-year-old girl who's had two 5-year relationships that have gone to the altar sort of thing, that's a lot of baggage for me, you know, for a guy, that's a lot of stuff to take on. And I'm not quite...you know, I didn't know what I was doing until I was 28. I was an ameoba. So I've only had three years of adulthood, effectively. JENNY BROCKIE: Do you have no baggage having had 30 girlfriends in the last 18 months? SAM SAUNDERS: Let's not use the word 'girlfriends' here. But, no, I'm completely baggage-free despite having dated... Absolutely. Absolutely. JENNY BROCKIE: Susan. SUSAN MAUSHART, AUTHOR: If your relationships don't last longer than one date, of course you're baggage-free and you know another thing, those Coco Pops you said you have for breakfast that may be part of this nexus. But I'd like to say something in Norman's defence, just because I'm feeling self-sabotaging at the moment. I think it's possible to be a little bit too glib in dismissing the pattern of mating that he's describing which, you know, anthropologists have a word for, it's called hypergamy - marrying up. That females - and it's not just in our society, it's in all human societies for all of human history - have tended to look for partners who are, yes, slightly taller, slightly older, slightly... have slightly more prestige socially and more economic resources at their disposal. We are the first generation of women in the first society that is attempting to break those rules. However, I think women today feel a real push-pull on that one because cognitively with our intelligent, you know, thinking, well-socialised brains, we know that's nonsense and we also know that that institutionalises inequality in a relationship because you marry somebody who is ipso facto more powerful than you and then you get in the relationship and you say, "Why do I feel powerless?" JENNY BROCKIE: So there are a lot more factors to take into account in choosing a mate, in a way, because of the social change that we've seen. SUSAN MAUSHART: You still need someone to feather the nest. If you're going to have kids together, you need somebody who's able to provide economically. Now we live in a situation where it doesn't have to be the guy. But it's in rare cases even still where you're going to get that kind of role reversal. PRU GOWARD: And that was the theme running through those clips. All those blokes felt that their primary role was to provide and because that wasn't necessary anymore, because there were going to be two providers, they were lost about, well, what else am I in this relationship? JENNY BROCKIE: Jim McKnight, is that what your research shows, that that's the way people are thinking about relationships? PROFESSOR JIM McKNIGHT, UWS: Well, one of the sad things about us as a species, of course, is what our attitudes are and what we think we believe is in fact not what we do. And I would agree wholeheartedly with what you've said. I mean, there's been endless studies of samples of 50,000 people and the researchers are very tricky in getting into what people actually do as distinct from what they think they think, and it comes through very clearly that there's very much a biological difference in expectations and women are on about things that basically say it's a very risky business being in a relationship and the biology of males is that it isn't particularly. It may be emotionally and it may be even socially. But certainly very different agendas. SUSAN MAUSHART: I agree with what you're saying but I would add further that biology is not our destiny because to quote Katherine Hepburn, I believe, in 'The African Queen', human nature is what we were put on this earth to rise above. So, you know, we're talking about something that's human nature but evolution is such that we can change what our nature is and I think we're on the cusp of doing that. JENNY BROCKIE: We're really talking about sex here and we're going to get on to that a little bit later on, I think. PHIL DYE: If we look at this idea of biology in midlife, for example, midlife relationships, you may have a guy about my age, 49, and often they're dating women who are about 40, and often those women are wanting children, either their first child or maybe their second child, but they want kids. Now, the men who are 49, my age, we've already got children, we don't want others and there is a real collapse there in the system that if women were dating up, they were going out with older men, perhaps more powerful men, the men have already got the family, they don't want a new oneWHEREas the women who have left child-bearing until 38, 40, do want them, and there is a real contradiction. JENNY BROCKIE: And of course once upon a time there wouldn't have been as many women around 40 looking for a mate, would there? That's the social change we've seen as well. Why do you think that is, Pru Goward? Why do you think we're seeing that kind of change? PRU GOWARD: Well, because people got married earlier and women didn't have much - nobody had much of an education and there was nothing to delay partnering and family formation. Now, I mean, a majority of people are still in some form of higher education at the age of 24. So it just pushes everything out just to when you can actually start to take a mortgage and... I mean, there are a lot of kids still living at home with their parents in their mid 20s. I mean, that was unheard of. JENNY BROCKIE: Let's have a look at that picture because I think a big look at the picture of Australia in relationships at the moment is worthwhile. Now, Bernard Salt, you're a demographer. What kind of change are we seeing in terms of partnering and relationships and how significant do you think it is? BERNARD SALT, DEMOGRAPHER, KPMG: There has been a major change in the average age of first marriage for an Australian woman. In 2002, the average Aussie bride was 29. She was a generation X-er born in 1973. In 1971 the average age at first marriage for an Australian woman was 21. She was a baby boomer born in 1950. The average Aussie bride has aged eight years in the last 30 and if she continues to age at this rate, she'll be pushing 40 by the middle of the century. What that has done has to redefine the twenty-something stage in life. You do not get married at 21, you complete tertiary education, you pay off HECS, you travel overseas, you establish and develop a career, you trial, even road-test, relationships and then you commit to marriage and mortgage, children and careers at 29 or 30. It's been a redefinition of the twenty-something stage in life. It's been put into effect by generation X and I think that this trend is likely to continue for another 20 years or so. JENNY BROCKIE: Now, you define this as a series of relationships that people have, don't you? You say essentially people have three relationships in their lives, serious relationships in their lives. Can you explain what they are? BERNARD SALT: I think there are three main phases of relationships in modern life. During the twenty-something phase in life, there is a series of de facto relationships. It's a bit like a sports car relationship. It's a very physical relationship. You want someone who looks good on your arm when you walk into a restaurant. It's a person for travel, a person for sex. It's a person for fun times during your 20s. By your late 20s you start to think about asset-building-type partners and you're looking for someone who wants to commit to marriage, mortgage, children and careers. So out with the sports car, in with the station wagon and you build a family. And you want to build a family, build a career, build a home, build something together. It's an asset-building relationship. That tends to last, I think, for about 20 years. And then you have another disconnect, if you like, and perhaps people then look for a soul mate, perhaps out with the station wagon, in with the Winnebago, as you tend to look for a soul mate in life to actually push forward. The issue is that maybe that isn't the end of the partnering relationships. Maybe baby boomers will be looking for love in their 60s and 70s as they continue to redefine love and relationships well beyond... JENNY BROCKIE: Why do you think they're not finding all of that with one person in a way that in the past people did stay with one partner for longer? BERNARD SALT: Well, I think it's a shift in values. Generation X, generation Y don't put up with things that previous generations may well have. If you are not getting on with the person, then, by modern values, you move on from that relationship. It's almost as if you're looking for a series of contract relationships which may be renewable after about five or seven years but it's a very different proposition to the notion of committing to marriage at the age of 21 and living together for 50 years. JENNY BROCKIE: OK, the women here are shaking their heads about some of this, Bernard. Susan. SUSAN MAUSHART: Well, I couldn't agree more as far as the snapshot goes of, you know, partnering patterns, but I think the reasons for that cannot be simply put down to a change in attitude. I think it's all about a change in economic realities. I think women of my mother's generation, for example, are very open in saying, "You want to know why I stuck in there and stayed married? Guess what, I had no options. What was I going to do?" There was no social security net, there was social stigma, you couldn't be a single mother and be a middle-class person. JENNY BROCKIE: So what does that mean for men? What did you say, Riki? RIKI KARENA: Well, I was with my girlfriend for two years and we just recently broke up four months ago, but it was because I didn't fit into her timetable. Like she had dancing, uni and that, and she was moving forward in life, didn't have enough time for me. So it was basically I fitted into her life or I was out the door. So I got out the door, unfortunately. JENNY BROCKIE: So you felt left behind by her...? RIKI KARENA: Yeah, I felt left behind. Like I've got a stable career, I'm in the military, been in the military for four years. My career's stable and hers is just beginning to take off. So basically I had to sit back and wait for the time that she had, you know, for me until I fit into her life. NORMAN MEREDITH: Well, what men need to do is they need to work harder, they need to have more status, more wealth and more power. A woman is twice as likely to leave her husband if she earns more than him. 80% of relationships are ended by women. So it's women are the ones that on average are dissatisfied with relationships and they're dissatisfied because the men aren't coming up to the mark because women expect higher and higher standards. As their own standards have risen, they expect more. JENNY BROCKIE: OK, lady here. WOMAN: I think this is such rubbish. I don't have a checklist, I'm 31, I've had two partners and all I want is someone that has a job, I don't care what they do. I want someone that takes me for a cup of coffee and is nice and respectful to me. That's all I'm after and I don't get asked out. JENNY BROCKIE: And why do you think you haven't been able to find that? WOMAN: Why...? Because I think women make it too easy. I have strong values and beliefs and I think women just go out with any guys and guys are becoming spineless and fussy and they just think, "Oh, I can get 10 girls down there, so why bother fighting or trying to be nice to this one? I'll just treat her like rubbish because I can just go to the next one." PROFESSOR JIM McKNIGHT: I wouldn't want to portray this evening as a battle of the sexes because I think what's happening is we're getting a very accurate sex - snapshot of what's happening. And all the research shows very clearly that we're in a period between one set of roles and a new set of roles evolving and we're not sure what the social shorthand is going to be next time around but the thing that's coming through the research is our relationships fail and don't go anywhere because we're in role strain and role ambiguity. JENNY BROCKIE: Yvonne, you wanted to say something. You're a matchmaker, of course. So what do you think of what you're hearing here tonight? YVONNE ALLEN, MATCHMAKER: You know, over the 30 years that Yvonne Allen and Associates has existed there has been a dramatic change in terms of the wish lists, the expectations and so on but when you dig beneath the surface, there's not a great difference really, in terms of what we want and need in a relationship. I've heard thousands of men's stories. I've had men weep, I've shared their frustration with what's been happening with we women and what we need is to look at how do we build the bridges to understanding of each other. We are different and viva la difference. BETTINA ARNDT, SOCIAL COMMENTATOR: But isn't there an issue of women's expectations getting higher and higher and this quest for a soul mate. This idea that we can get from a man what we get from our women friends, someone who wants to talk about relationships, someone who wants to regurgitate all of our emotions, they don't exist. YVONNE ALLEN: But men also, and I don't want to beef you, but I believe you're yearning also for a soul mate. Often the woman is a conduit for a man's emotions and a lot of men that I've spoken to have been emotionally stranded. BETTINA ARNDT: But they want to talk about. JENNY BROCKIE: I'd actually like them to talk about it but they're looking very silent at this point. But I am interested in the point that Bettina was making about - you're all nodding your heads about that - about how women want men to be like their girlfriends. Is that the way a lot of you feel? That you're expected to be something that you don't feel comfortable being? SAM SAUNDERS: I feel like men have become feminised and women have become masculinised. I think that certainly backs up your point of there's certainly - there's certainly things that we traditionally expect that we should be doing that we are no longer doing and I think that causes a big problem. I mean, I remember when I was in my early 20s, I was a snag. When I was in my late teens I was a snag I was like - I talked to girls and, like, "What's going on? Oh, you know." And I was interpreting their boyfriends things and it was - I was a total snag and then I got to my mid 20s and had very limited success with girls and I thought this snag thing is for the chumps. I'm every girl's best friend and I'm getting nothing in return. So then I obviously went to the obligatory bastard years 25 to 28 and now I'm sort of a cross between the two but I think it's a nice balance between, you know, the compassionate snag and the "No, we're not doing that" guy. JENNY BROCKIE: We've heard a lot about the women's checklist. What about the male's checklist? What do you want, Sam? SAM SAUNDERS: My checklist is... I mean, look, I would like a woman who's extremely funny, who gets along with my friends, who goes out a lot, like, is socially active. Can't deny it, I like a woman who I'm physically attracted to. That doesn't mean... I mean, everyone's got their own version of that. Someone who I'm attracted to physically, that's very important. JENNY BROCKIE: Charlotte. CHARLOTTE HOGAN: Just something I guess I've observed perhaps on myself and I don't know if anyone else understands this as well, is often I find, that a lot of the attributes, personality traits that guys are attracted to me for, actually end up being why it doesn't work. JENNY BROCKIE: Norman, you're sounding very bitter at this point. NORMAN MEREDITH: I just want an acknowledgment by the women over here that they end the majority of relationships. CHARLOTTE HOGAN: My last relationship my boyfriend broke - my ex-boyfriend broke up with me.... WOMAN: Because men choose to stay in them. Men will choose to stay in an unhappy relationship because it's too hard to leave. Or they'll do the thing where they shut down and wait for the woman to leave because they can't handle breaking it off themselves. PRU GOWARD: If you have all your washing and ironing done and your meals cooked, you'd stay too. MAN: No, you wouldn't, you'd stay with your parents. JENNY BROCKIE: OK, one at a time. SUSAN MAUSHART: Can I just also say that a lot of relationships break up, Norman, because the man is chasing more wealth and more power and more prestige. Those things that you think are going to be the guarantee of the longevity of the relationship, in fact sow the seeds of the destruction. NORMAN MEREDITH: Oh yeah, poor status, wealth and power, men can easily upgrade and get another woman. Look at Rupert Murdoch, Bob Hawke, Tom Cruise. JENNY BROCKIE: So you really feel that that was at the centre of your break-up with Libby? NORMAN MEREDITH: I didn't have enough status, wealth and power. If I was better-educated than Libby and if I had more money, I don't think she would have left me. JENNY BROCKIE: Let's give Libby a chance to answer that. Libby. LIBBY WARREN: It's absolutely not true. And I think this is probably what the problem was in the relationship, is that we were seeing things very differently around that. I think, I mean, a person's job does reflect their character, I think. I mean, if someone is unmotivated and has no ambition, I'm not that interested in them. I find it attractive that someone is ambitious and takes care of themselves and has respect for themselves and I think your occupation does often reflect that. But it's certainly - I mean why - I am a professional, I earn very good money, I own my own home, I don't need a man but I would like to have someone. JENNY BROCKIE: I'd like to get back to this point of the sort of disconnect between men and women about what they actually want because this issue of breadwinners has come up again and again in this discussion, which I find really interesting that a lot of people have talked about how women are looking for a breadwinner or looking to partner up, if you like. I wonder, Jim, you've done research on what men and women want. It does reinforce that idea about what women want, doesn't it? PROFESSOR JIM McKNIGHT: Sure does. If you take a group of 30 people that hang around together and socialise and are looking for partners, if you ask all the men about all the women and you ask them, "How do you think about this thing?" "How do you think about that thing?" the one thing the men will all agree on is attraction, sensuality, those sorts of things. The thing the women will all agree at and individually is who's going to make the best parent, who's going to be the best provider. JENNY BROCKIE: That's very interesting and I've got your research here and it is very striking, I have to tell you, because, under what men want, the top of the list is sex, 90%, it says, this research, and, in contrast what women want, parental potential, 80% and potential as a breadwinner 79%. So you found really that men want sex. PROFESSOR JIM McKNIGHT: And these are individual guys agreeing separately but with each other as to who in their mating circle were really good potential people. What they're good at picking in an opposite sex partner is what they're trained by nature to look for. JENNY BROCKIE: Phil is doing research as well. Just explain what you're doing. PHIL DYE: I've been interviewing people in midlife about this and there's been this term that comes up again and again and that's the rise of the bonk buddy in midlife relationship, that sex is important and it's interesting that we've come half an hour and we've just mentioned the word 'sex'. But it is a primary driver and what's happening is that the men I've spoken to, women are actually the ones who are introducing this, or bringing the topic up of the bonk buddy. Previously it might have been men who were saying... JENNY BROCKIE: What is a bonk buddy? Just explain for the benefit of our viewers, what is a bonk buddy? PHIL DYE: Someone you just have sex with, and that's it. It's a friend you have sex with. You don't necessarily go out with them. You're not seen at parties with them. It's there to satisfy the sexual need. Now, 20 years ago that might have been on men's mind but now it would seem that women are far more the sexual predators, if that's a term that I can use, that it's... The bonk buddy is something that's actually being introduced more by women. Certainly there have been... There's been several men have said that in my research. I interviewed this man and he said he went out with this woman, first night and they end up bonking on the first night and, you know, it was all great and he thought she was pretty good and the next morning he got an SMS message with the words, "When can we bonk again?" Not thanks for the night out, thanks for the, you know, I really enjoyed your company. SUSAN MAUSHART: At least she called him the night after. JENNY BROCKIE: I don't know that everybody heard that, Susan. What did you say? SUSAN MAUSHART: At least she called him the next morning. PHIL DYE: But that confusion... That confused him immensely. You know, he said he actually felt a bit disempowered by that and I found that very interesting. That it was shifted. JENNY BROCKIE: No, I think there are other people who do want to have a say, Norman, and I will get back to you at some point. But, Phil, I'm interested in that because when you say men feel disempowered by that, is that the way the men here feel if women behave like that? You're all being terribly quiet. I'm really concerned about this. I'm not getting... MAN: We were actually discussing before myself and a couple of the other guys that we've been in relationships where - that have been primarily about sex without love and we've been in relationships where we've been in love and being in love, making love to someone who you love beats the pants off the technically best sex you could ever have any place any time. JENNY BROCKIE: That's good, we've got some agreement on something, which is fantastic. YVONNE ALLEN: It's getting back to what I was saying about that connection that we all, I believe, want. MICHAEL WILKINS: But in terms of being disempowered, how many of you guys would be happy if your partner earned more than you and you stayed at home and looked after children? And I think that is the unsaid. Most blokes would. Most blokes don't really care about... JENNY BROCKIE: Well, why don't they, Michael? MICHAEL WILKINS: Because blokes are looking for the same thing that everyone else is. They're just looking for a partner in life and this disempowerment thing just doesn't wash with me. It doesn't wash because I think some women are setting some benchmarks, blokes don't have any benchmarks. They just want someone to love, that's it. JENNY BROCKIE: One of the things I want to ask the women is whether they acknowledge that for the men this change has been difficult. That in fact it has been a very difficult change to go from being the provider, being the one who makes all the moves and all the rest of it, to adjusting to the modern woman. Do you accept that that's difficult for men? REBECCA HUNTLEY: I think one of the reasons why that has happened is that the feminist movement has changed what it means to be a woman, right? So it used to be a very small role, it used to be a very circumscribed role. Now women can be anything. They can be president of a country, they can be a mother and whatever. It hasn't done the same thing for men. It hasn't redefined what it is to be a man. So I understand the... It's beginning to slowly, but a lot of the men that I've interviewed who are young men still say, well - I had one boy say to me, "Well, my female friends want me to wear pink shirts. My male friends beat me up if I wear them. My mother wants me to wear cardigans. What do I do?" You know, I actually think there's genuine confusion. I really understand that. Also when young men see women say, "We want a guy who treats us well," and they go for the bastards and it's an immaturity thing that happens with girls sometimes but it's a terrible thing for men. And it actually scars them and they end up like Norman. In the end, it's actually a terrible thing. It's actually a terrible injustice and in the end they just have to mature. JENNY BROCKIE: Up the back, yes. MAN: I think this is one of the reasons why the guys are so quiet is because these days we don't know what it is to be politically correct. What my father went through years ago when he met my mother, what I go through now would be construed completely differently. JENNY BROCKIE: Let's talk about whether how much all of this matters in terms of what it's meaning for our lives because, if we are partnering, I suppose having more partners and those partnerships are ending and others are beginning or we're spending more time alone, what does it actually mean for us? Now, one of the things that's come up, of course, is the issue of children and fertility for women, which is a pressing issue. Charlotte, what about you? You're a paediatrician so you deal with children all the time. CHARLOTTE HOGAN: I work in a birthing unit so I better say I want to have kids. Which I do. And I truly look forward to the day that I get married and have children but I have just not felt the hurry to do that. My mum had me when she was 36, I'm now 33. I was brought up in a household as an only child where independence and confidence and being ambitious and having a career were important. But I also grew up in a very happy family environment. My parents are still together and encourage me to have children. I look forward to that, I just don't see the hurry to do it straightaway. JENNY BROCKIE: Heidi, you're in your early 40s. How do you feel about the hurry? HEIDI: I think I might have left it a bit too late but it's something I regret and I guess if I found a partner quite soon it would be something that I'd still consider but I think I'm right on that cusp of almost too late. JENNY BROCKIE: How much of an issue is this for men in the women that they come across? Do you feel there's an urgency from women about having kids, particularly women in their 30s, in that 30 to 40 age group? SAM SAUNDERS: Yeah, I think there's no doubt when you date a girl, it's certainly in the back of your mind. I'm 31 so if I date a girl who's 35, say, I mean, that's certainly, you know, am I actually ready to in the next two years to go from my lifestyle now to, you know, potentially a child? JENNY BROCKIE: Yvonne, are you seeing people coming to you - is this an issue for the people who come to you looking for mates? YVONNE ALLEN: Definitely, definitely. And I think the issue is it is not easy, even though there are so many of us out there single, to find each other. Once upon a time it was assumed that everybody would meet and marry, and they did, virtually. JENNY BROCKIE: And men, of course, have the option for a much longer time. MAN: How has the dating process changed? YVONNE ALLEN: Well, you know, I will have a beautiful women sit before me and say, "I haven't been asked out on a date for years," and feels really bad about that and I'll say, "But that's how it is today." People go out in groups, it's a different scenario. JENNY BROCKIE: Libby, yes. LIBBY WARREN: I think this is a huge issue and it's one of my little areas that I'm interested in because I've done the Internet dating thing. But I think it's so difficult. I've gone years without, you know, really meeting anyone because I work in a female-dominated area. It's really hard to meet people and I found one way is to use the Internet. JENNY BROCKIE: Bettina. BETTINA ARNDT: No, I'm a great advocate of the Internet and I know a lot of people who've got married through the Internet. I think it's the only solution in this world where a lot of us are looking for partners. And when we're working in confined situations surrounded by married people, you're not going to stumble across other single people who might be the sort of people you want to connect with. JENNY BROCKIE: Pru Goward, what happens when people do find partners? We've talked a lot tonight about not finding partners, but what happens when reality hits and you're actually in a partnership? Do people get a shock? PRU GOWARD: Well, yes, I think because the love thing is such a powerful force, I mean, when you are in love with somebody they are perfect. You are perfect, you're such a nice person, it all just is golden. And then the reality of dirty clothes on the floor, who is putting the cat out, who is cleaning up, who is looking after who, that's when the scales fall from your eyes and then you have to actually start working on the relationship. JENNY BROCKIE: Now you're talking women finding the dirty clothes on the floor, by and large. And not the men? PRU GOWARD: There are tidy men. You can see it from the way they run their office that they're tidy, they just aren't tidy at home. JENNY BROCKIE: Michael Wilkins, you've criticised Pru's view in a column. You got very angry when she raised this whole issue of housework and division of labour in the house. Why? MICHAEL WILKINS: Well, because Pru, like a lot of government bureaucrats is a hostage to statistics. She just believes what she reads about her time-use figures and I've read some of the things she's said. She says if you add up the division of labour, paid and unpaid, women still end up about 90 minutes a week ahead. A day, Pru if that's true, I just can't believe it. No man I know in paid or unpaid work does that sort of division. We are working as hard as our women at home as we are at work and we're doing it every single day. JENNY BROCKIE: Michael, might you be in a minority if you are? MICHAEL WILKINS: No, I don't think so. I mean, you know, anecdotally, I talk to men every day, I wrote that column, I think I got 150 emails, all from men, saying, "You're absolutely right." And I think that most men would agree the modern man has come to a compromise in their domestic relationship and that is one of the things that has had to happen. Love does not end when the dirty clothes are on the floor, it continues, but you've just got to compromise to make it work. JENNY BROCKIE: OK, Pru, what's the hard evidence, though, because you've looked statistically at this. What does the evidence show? PRU GOWARD: I always feel when they have to make a personal attack they haven't got much of an argument, but the time-use data, I mean, you can throw it out if you like but it's the best thing we've got going for us in terms of evidence. Everybody has anecdotes. I know what my life's about, and my friends, and you know what you and your life but nobody knows how everybody's lives are, and that's what surveys are for. They ask people to fill in diaries. Unless people are lying... MICHAEL WILKINS: And the blokes are probably at work while the others are filling in the diaries. BETTINA ARNDT: There was about half an hour difference in between men and women. My understanding is it was very similar and then the other part of this whole equation is whose choice is it? There's research being done in Australia which shows if you ask men and women, "Is the division of housework fair?" most women still say yes. So there's no pressure coming from women to change it.. JENNY BROCKIE: Yes, Susan. SUSAN MAUSHART: Well, you've got to take on board, and again, Norman, tip my hat to you just a quarter inch here, that women do initiate the majority of divorces, not only in Australia but throughout the developed world. I think the proof of the pudding really is in the divorce rate as far as women's satisfaction goes. JENNY BROCKIE: Norman's dying to say something. NORMAN MEREDITH: If I can come in there, things are going to be very different for generation Y because high status, wealth and power women - Condoleezza Rice, Helen Clark, Kate Carnell. REBECCA HUNTLEY: Condoleezza Rice has never had a partner. NORMAN MEREDITH: Let me finish, please. They don't have children, high status, wealth and power women. So they'll be out of the gene pool. It's going to be women that have more traditional values and so the children will be brought up with more traditional values which is going to be a swing back to the '60s. JENNY BROCKIE: So you think there will be a conservative revival? NORMAN MEREDITH: Yes. And you can already see that. JENNY BROCKIE: What do the other fellows think? Does anyone agree with Norman? MAN: Isn't that genetics versus environment? So what you're saying is those values are genetically governed, rather than environmentally? NORMAN MEREDITH: Partly, yes. JENNY BROCKIE: But I'm interested in what you think about Norman's position. Norman is taking a very strong position here and he seems to be quite angry about what's happened both in his life and what is happening in general. Do the rest of you feel angry about the way sex roles are developing and what it's doing to relationships? PROFESSOR JIM McKNIGHT: The most optimistic thing that I've seen is when you're talking to 16- to 18-year-olds, either sex will ask the other one out if they want to go and I think that's the way of the future. JENNY BROCKIE: We are going to have to wrap up because we are pretty much out of time. But I'd like to just ask those of you in this room who are single, or any of you, actually, who'd be happy to stay single forever? Anyone? Come on, be brave if you're there. Does anyone want to stay single? Would anyone like to be single forever? WOMAN: I'm not going to settle for someone. I'm not going to be unhappy. I'd rather be on my own than unhappy. JENNY BROCKIE: Can you just say that again, because we didn't quite get you. WOMAN: I'm not going to settle for someone. If I don't find someone that I'm going to be happy with, and as we all know relationships are about seeing who you fit with best, that's why we keep going out with people, and I'm not going to be with someone and be unhappy. I'd much rather be on my own. JENNY BROCKIE: The women are nodding. What about the men? SAM SAUNDERS: The dating game is very exhausting. JENNY BROCKIE: Especially with 30 women in 18 months, Sam. SAM SAUNDERS: It's emotionally exhausting and it drives you broke. JENNY BROCKIE: Sean, you're defying the trend. At 24, you're engaged. Is that right? SEAN COHEN: That's right. JENNY BROCKIE: How do you find your way through this maze? SEAN COHEN: We didn't meet in a traditional way. We were a long-distance relationship. I'm from Perth, so I spend... I kind of cheated and we spent the first year and a bit just over the phone. So it broke down a lot of those barriers that you have when you're standing right in front of somebody. It becomes very awkward sometimes, body language is very difficult. When you're only on the phone, when somebody is just a voice on the other end of the phone, it's much easier. So we just focused on what brought us together for those years and I think yeah, it's definitely a trend here tonight is that people are arguing about the differences between men and women and that women should be defending where they're coming from and these changes in women's social roles. You shouldn't be defending it, you should be embracing it. JENNY BROCKIE: Rebecca, for all your research that you're doing into other people's lives, into generation Y, you're also getting married next month, aren't you? REBECCA HUNTLEY: Yes, six weeks. That's why I'm so tense. JENNY BROCKIE: How did you manage that? How did you manage to find a partner? REBECCA HUNTLEY: Look, I think the thing was I'd had a rough time in my late 20s. I was in a long-term relationship that didn't work out and when I merged in my 20s into the dating scene it was like - it was like animal kingdom really, you know. I didn't know whether I was a gazelle or a lion half the time. And I kind of gave up. I thought, "Well, if this is my life with my work and my cat and my house or whatever, that's good." And I kind of got lucky, because in many ways it's just a very - it's a crazy, chaotic world and I tried Internet dating, tried all kinds of things, and I fell in love with my very good friend's brother. So I got lucky. JENNY BROCKIE: Sam, what can we expect from you in the next 10 years? Let me do the sums, 30 times... SAM SAUNDERS: Well, I would, you know, I think I would like to meet Ms Right. As simple as that. I want to meet her, I want to go out, have fun and just keep the fun alive and become a team. That's it. It's pretty simple really. Like, our demands are quite simple but it's not like, you know, there's all these things. You know, part of a team, love - done. JENNY BROCKIE: Yes, Odile. ODILE WILKINS: I'd like to respond to something he's been saying. Sam, before, you said you found dating, like the whole idea of dating is just really hard. When you actually find that person, and you do settle down and you do have a family, that's hard work, you know, and I think when you do get into it, you learn so much. Like, Michael and I, when we got married, you know, we didn't have a perfect relationship and we have a very, very strong relationship now but that's because we communicate, we negotiate, we work things out and we love each other. JENNY BROCKIE: What a great note to end on, Odile. Thank you very, very much. ODILE WILKINS: And Michael, he listens and I think that's very, very important. MICHAEL WILKINS: That's about 90% of it. JENNY BROCKIE: He doesn't listen to Pru, though. MICHAEL WILKINS: No, I don't listen to Pru. NORMAN MEREDITH: And he earns a good wage. JENNY BROCKIE: We are going to have to leave it there otherwise we'll just start all over again and I think we could stay here all night, actually. But thank you very much indeed, everybody, for joining this discussion. Terrific, thanks very much for joining us. |
