Then Terry, I suppose the fact that the Jehovah's Witnesses have written as well as demonstrated their belief that the Bible is errant and fallible only leaves the claims of the leader's ability to "spirit channel" as a basis for "belief"? Whenever the Witness leader's refer to a Bible verse for a proof text, they have by their own words discredited their sacred text in earlier writings. Their New World Translation has proven not error free. Check on how many times it has been "revised".
A religion without an infallible sacred text is not a religion, it's something else. The Watchtower magazine isn't infallible, they change that like Bubba changes his t-shirts.
The most EERIE passage in a Watchtower Publication leads to atheisim
by Terry 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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garybuss
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Cygnus
I just wanted to say, Good points Elsewhere.
Here's what gets me when it comes to the WT explanation of "why things are how they are':
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sl chap. 4 pp. 62-63 The Transforming of the Messianic "Servant" ***The issue [of Jehovah's universal sovereignty] had been raised in the Garden of Eden, shortly after the creation of the perfect Adam and Eve. At that time the spirit son of God who is now Satan the Devil saw what he thought was an opportunity to establish a sovereignty of his own, over mankind at least, if not also over angels. He rebelled against his heavenly Father Jehovah and broke away from that One’s sovereignty. Then, by means of Eve as a temptress, Satan put the pressure upon the perfect man Adam to join him in rebellion against the Universal Sovereign Jehovah. In this way the issue of universal sovereignty was raised for the first time. The question now was, not just, Who among mankind will adhere to Jehovah’s universal sovereignty, but, more critically, Who in heaven will keep integrity toward the Most High God and remain loyal and faithful to His universal sovereignty as the right thing for all creation?
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For this reason, the paramount issue reached as high up as to the foremost heavenly son of God, Jehovah’s chief official, "the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14) His official position in heaven was that of Logos, or Word, Spokesman. (John 1:1-3) Above all other creations of Jehovah God, this highest official of God needed to be tested and proved on this issue of unselfish devotion to Jehovah’s universal sovereignty. Till Job’s time and for more than fifteen centuries afterward he had kept his integrity to his heavenly Father Jehovah. He had conducted himself faultlessly as his Father’s principal official, The Word. Ah, yes, but that was without suffering bodily pain, that was without undergoing the deepest humiliation and undeserved dishonor. That was not down here on this earth as a man like the perfect Adam in the Garden of Eden. But now, let this highly honored and respected official of God experience such adverse things here on earth—at the hands of Satan the Devil—and then let us see whether he will keep his integrity to God and remain submissive to His universal sovereignty! Logically, that was Satan’s line of reasoning.-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come now. Jesus had seen the Flood, he'd seen babies being burned in sacrifice, he'd witnessed every form of atrocity man had subjected each other to. His mission of integrity keeping pales in comparison, especially since he knew he'd get his life back, and an incorruptible, imperishable one at that. At least the Christadelphians don't believe in Jesus' prehuman existence and ultimate advantage he would have had being alive in heaven for billions of years prior to his earthly home.
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Terry
I personally believe there is a God-Creator, or Gods-Creators, but something had to have designed all of this, I don't know for what purpose, or why he or they do not interact with us in any way that modern man knows of, and I don't buy the Virgin appearing on water marks nonsense. But really, why do we see in color, why do we smell pleasant smells, why do we feel wonderful sensations, these were not necessary for survival yet without them our life would be very bland, and unexciting. The different trees, the flowers, the animals the medicinal plants to keep us healthy, I cannot believe it all happened by accident, don't get me wrong, I also wonder why he or they do not intervene when horrific tragedy happens, but I won't let this make me bitter, life is too wonderful!
When you say, "Something had to have designed all of this" you immediately forget the most essential fact, but, I'll repeat it to you:
WOULD YOU INSIST THIS APPLIES TO GOD TOO?
You ignore the essential flaw in your own insistence and go on to other items you've listed.
Unless you can address this hole in your demand for design authorship beyond God--it is meaningless as a proof of necessity altogether.
Think about it.
Terry
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Nathan Natas
It really isn't difficult at all; it's just like the personal evolution that Clark Kent, Peter Parker and Norrin Radd went through.
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julien
Terry --- Wow, now my brain hurts!! But that really makes one think. I personally believe there is a God-Creator, or Gods-Creators, but something had to have designed all of this, I don't know for what purpose, or why he or they do not interact with us in any way that modern man knows of, and I don't buy the Virgin appearing on water marks nonsense. But really, why do we see in color, why do we smell pleasant smells, why do we feel wonderful sensations, these were not necessary for survival yet without them our life would be very bland, and unexciting. The different trees, the flowers, the animals the medicinal plants to keep us healthy, I cannot believe it all happened by accident, don't get me wrong, I also wonder why he or they do not intervene when horrific tragedy happens, but I won't let this make me bitter, life is too wonderful! Why do you think these things aren't necessary for survival? If you see in black and white and someone else sees in color, and you both are gathering fruit, who has the advantage? Same for smell. Smell also can warn you when something is dangerous (rotting). Wonderful sensations--again, they are creating motivation for things that are advantages (eg sexual pleasure). Flowers often look bright because bland flowers don't get visited. Medicinal plants? How about poisonous plants. Do those cancel out the good ones? If not, why not? Fruit tastes good because then it gets eaten more, which leads to better seed dispersal. Appreciation for music and art are a little harder to explain, as is possessing a notion of 'fairness'.
You sound reasonable, I recommend 'The Selfish Gene' and 'The Blind Watchmaker' by Dawkins. Natural selection is fascinating stuff, far more so than just saying 'God did it'. There is a mountain of evidence to support it too.
ps. don't use Mozilla to edit messages -
inquirer
When you say, "Something had to have designed all of this" you immediately forget the most essential fact, but, I'll repeat it to you:
WOULD YOU INSIST THIS APPLIES TO GOD TOO?
You ignore the essential flaw in your own insistence and go on to other items you've listed.
Unless you can address this hole in your demand for design authorship beyond God--it is meaningless as a proof of necessity altogether.
Think about it.
Terry
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inquirer -- But in the Bible, God doesn't have a beginning -- that's the concept we don't understand because no one has experienced it! This is something not talked about in the Bible.
I ask you this: How do you know you are dead or in a deep sleep? "Get Smart" Don Adams died recently. He probably had a feeling he was going to die -- but really he is conscious of nothing. He's in God's memory. But Don himself doesn't know his dead -- we'd have to "wake him up out of his sleep" and tell him he was dead -- But then he would be alive then! To a lot of people, and in particular atheists this is all there is -- no resurrection (Sadducee philosophy) and when you are dead you are dead.
I don't believe that God is all-knowing in the absolute sense! He can see things happening according to what path we choose at the time we we choose it! He doesn't know that we are going to do something unless we decide our destination even if it's only in the mind! But when we think it, he knows and starts to know every possible combination we will do. Everything has been mapped out on God's infinitely big computer -- it's like with Gmail, if any of you have that account, there's is more megabytes being added to it all the time so you never have to delete your files. Same with God -- his database gets bigger and bigger according to all the things he creates. When he created earth, it was quite a project because there's human life there and so he had to add a serious amount of information to his database. He could eternally add information to this "database" because look at how infinitely big the universe is, he could just add another mainframe-sized room where he wants -- he doesn't have to pay someone for extra buildings! lol But does that mean that God once didn't have a "computer database?"* No, since he is eternal he would have always been equipped to handle more network traffic when it got busy. Since he is eternal, he's always been there infinitely in the pass -- a concept we don't understand.
I don't know why the Watchtower said "There was a time before He began creating that Jehovah was alone and, much as any adolescent about to embark upon what life will ultimately be, He had to choose what He would become." Sounds like it was written by an atheist! He should have been kicked out for writing such crap! I'd love to find that book! I am not a JW anymore so I guess I don't have to worry about stuff like that anymore. :) May as well through the Bible away if you are going to say garbage like that!
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*Footnote: I think the "matrix concept" on Gallifrey (Doctor Who) matches what I am saying here. But if I said that God and his Angels (or the timelords and the presidents for that matter) lived on a planet -- that would be too Mormon like which they believe God exists on Koleb! The JW's believed something similar to this as well!
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ICBehindtheCurtain
Terry --- I understand what you are saying, frankly I don't know what kind of being the Creator is or how long he or they have been around, or if we were created by some other beings that were created themselves, frankly, I don't know, I just cannot accept that the universe came into being on its own, with no outside influence or design. It's strange how in all the thousands of years that civilized man has been around nothing has wiped us out yet, other planets get hit all the time, ours has in the past I know, but we haven't all been wiped out yet. As fare as evolution is concerned, I don't buy it, if man evolved from apes, there wouldn't be any apes around now, I don't deny that some species might have adapted but I believe the original of these was designed, also if evolution was true, I think man would have wings now, we've been fascinated with flying for ages, we'd also be able to breath underwater.
Julien --- I haven't really delved into natural selection yet, my journey has brought me to where I am now only recently, but I don't close my mind to other ideas either, I will look for the books you recommended and see where that takes me, also, I was aware of the senses we have and how they are used for self preservation, I was only talking about those senses that enhance the experience of being human.
IC
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Jeffro
But really, why do we see in color, why do we smell pleasant smells, why do we feel wonderful sensations, these were not necessary for survival yet without them our life would be very bland, and unexciting. The different trees, the flowers, the animals the medicinal plants to keep us healthy, I cannot believe it all happened by accident, don't get me wrong, I also wonder why he or they do not intervene when horrific tragedy happens, but I won't let this make me bitter, life is too wonderful!
This reasoning is an example of the 'anthropomorphic principle', the belief that we exist the way we do because the universe is here for our existence. However, the reality is that we exist the way we do because the conditions of the universe allow it to be the case.
All of the warm fuzzy issues raised can also be phrased as negatives... why is the entire light spectrum not visible to us? why are some harmful odours undetectable to us? why can we not selectively turn off pain? why are some plants and animals detrimental to us?
Humans like to classify things as 'good' and 'bad' based on what impact those things have on themselves or on things they care about. Reality is a little harsher than that. Suns explode. Planets die. It's been happening for a very long time.
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TheOldHippie
TIME is only then, when space and matter exist, is it not? So without created matter, there is no TIME, and so it is not correct to speak about the "billions of years that Jehovah was alone, before He started creating" - because before he started the creating process, there was no TIME.
Also, "eternity" is something vastly different from "a very long time", it is not only quantitatively different, but also qualitatively, so that given an "eternity", everything that might possibly happen, WILL happen.
"When you've been dead and buried for a hundred million years - a fraction of a second of eternity will have elapsed."
These are thoughts that make me ....... take a walk with my dogs.
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Check_Your_Premises
1.If you have never created anything or anyone you cannot be a CREATOR.
Who is to say that nothing was ever before created? Who is to say that there is not existence outside of our own perception or the one the Bible tells us about?
The idea of an omnipotent being, sitting around in nothingness for all eternity before our universe came into existence does seem kind of silly.
Imagine all possibilities, and then consider the scope of our existence. What appears to us as infinity could be merely infinitesimal. Even within the scope of temporal/matter/energy based existence we can't seem find the floor or the ceiling. We try to find the tiniest thing, and it always seems there is something tinier. We try to find the biggest, and the damn thing just keeps getting bigger.
In case you were wondering, alot of people used to say it was fun to drop acid with me...
I love the "if all things require a Creator, then so does the Creator argument". That always bakes my noodle.