I too, looked the book up on a few CDs...I don't think much was put in a cd before 1971. Besides there are CDs on sale on free minds I believe
http://www.freeminds.org/sales/cdroms.htm
Plce to get a great deal of info and CDs.
The most EERIE passage in a Watchtower Publication leads to atheisim
by Terry 47 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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poppers
Let's leave reasoning out of this - I know this flies in the face of everything you've been taught, but you are making statements which are mind based, they are assumptions. Let go of your assumptions and directly investigate. You said, "To be aware is to be aware of something." What is your direct evidence when this is investigated? Find out if awareness can be prior to anything else, if awareness NEEDS something to shine upon.
You said, "One exists possessing consciousness," This too is an assumption; it is based on the largely unchallenged belief that there is a "me". Find this "me" who makes assumptions. Can anything other than ideas of "me" be found? What are you when the idea of "me" is gone? There IS no "me" in reality to possess anything, there is simply what is in its totality. One of the "things" which arises is the personalized "ego sense" which is only a phantom entity, but it is this entity which takes itself to be real and separate, and thereby create "other". Without "me" there can be no "other". This can be dis-covered directly.
You said, "Before it could identify itself as consciousness," Consciousness does not identify itself as ANYTHING, it just IS - it is just the pure and simple "knowingness" itself. It is the mind which applies labels to what consciousness illuminates. Mind applies labels, and the ego sense makes claims of ownership; it accepts or rejects depending upon how one defines oneself as a separate entity.
You said, "To exist is TO BE something". What I am pointing to is that the "somethings" of the phenomenal world are EXPRESSIONS of pure existence, that You as you truly are are existence itself. Because of pure existence/presence/awareness/consciousness/You everything else can BE. This is LIFE itself prior to its EXPRESSION. Without expression it is still "life", although it is life in its unmanifested form.
You said, "Existence is, therefore, IDENTITY; Consciousness is IDENTIFICATION." I would argue out of my own direct experience, which is: Existence IS; Consciousness IS; the "ego sense" (the "me" entity) is consciousness which has isolated itself to create "me" and "other", but this "me" isn't real, it is an illusion because when sought it is nowhere to be found. When it is no longer there, consciousness still remains, free and unbound, not identified with ANYTHING.
Yes, the unreal does not exist, but the human mind insists on creating beliefs and then invests those beliefs with reality which the ego sense accepts or rejects. This is where problems and suffering are created - minds create scenarios out of what is, and the ego clings to or rejects those scenarios in order to maintain its false sense of identity. Without the beliefs, without the scenarios, what is is simply what is. There is no NEED to label any of it, but the tendency of the mind to do so is what creates the illusion of separation. With separation there follows fear; without separation there IS no fear.
You said, "EXISTENCE is a self-sufficient primary." I absolutely agree with this. Existence IS - always has, always will; and YOU in reality are existence. This is what is found when the "me" is searched for, existence itself - it's what you are. Another name for it is awareness/ consciousness/ presence; and IT/You are prior to everything else. -
Terry
You said, "EXISTENCE is a self-sufficient primary." I absolutely agree with this. Existence IS - always has, always will; and YOU in reality are existence. This is what is found when the "me" is searched for, existence itself - it's what you are. Another name for it is awareness/ consciousness/ presence; and IT/You are prior to everything else.
That I am prior to everything else would come as a shock to my parents!
But, alas! They no longer exist.
T.
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poppers
Terry said, "That I am prior to everything else would come as a shock to my parents!"
There is a zen koan which says something like, "Find your original face, the face you had before your parents were born." The purpose of any koan is to get you "out of your head" and into the reality of what is - in short, to wake you up; to disidentify with what you believe yourself to be and to reveal what you actually are beyond name and form. It is to this which I am pointing. -
Terry
The purpose of any koan is to get you "out of your head" and into the reality of what is - in short, to wake you up; to disidentify with what you believe yourself to be and to reveal what you actually are beyond name and form. It is to this which I am pointing.
MYSTICISM!
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Check_Your_Premises
"who is to say that there is not existence outside of our own perception" which almost sounds like it means something! But, frankly, it cannot.
So are you saying that unless we are able to perceive something it cannot exist? You lost me here. I see man as hoplessly limited in his ability to perceive and understand. I think you are saying rather that unless we can prove or validate something, we are better off not putting alot of stock in it. I can't say I disagree. I am simply saying that I don't think we can dismiss the possibility. I have a feeling we are talking past eachother a bit. More of a distinction than a difference.
When we begin excusing the ridiculous by resorting to the fallacious "argument from ignorance" (we base a belief on what we DON'T know) it is a sure sign we crave the fix that comes from the hypdermic syringe of the imaginary!
That is always a danger. We always have to mindful of the extent our own desires, and cravings come into play in what we end up believing. I certainly don't exclude myself. I must say that my choice to believe in God is not, in my opinion, a blind one. What I mean to say is that it is based on things I perceive in my existence.
We have chatted a bit. You know my biases and cravings. What are yours? Maybe I have missed it, and you have discussed them. I hope I am not getting to personal, and I hope I am not coming off in a condescending Christian sort of way. I frankly admit that you are much more knowledgeable on the subject, and probably a brighter bulb (well, who you going to brag to about that?). But I have to think that someone who lost so many precious years to a reliance on faith, would have to be awfully hateful towards the portion of their mind that would allow such a fateful mistep.
I am not saying certain unproveable things have to be true, rather I refuse to reject what is possible based on the fact that it isn't proveable. I guess it is a slippery slope when we swim out into the deep water of putting our trust in that which we can't validate. I myself only tread out far enough into the possible where I can still keep the shore of what I can validate in site. The funny part for me, is that what I thought was such deep water actually has alot of things to stand on. I have experienced things that seem to defy explanations apart from the ones I have put my trust in. But those are my experiences, I can't expect them to mean anything to you.
All I am saying is that if you open yourself up to the idea, I think God gives you what you need to have faith in him. Of course, maybe I am crazy and need my fix. Approximately,
Our belief = what we want to be true + facts*our reasoning
All this sure would be alot easier without that doggone offset.
Thanks for all your posts here. You probably do get me thinking more than most.
I promise you that once I don't need my faith as strategic cover, I will let all you agonstic/athiest types take your best shots. Right now, I just don't have the time.
CYP
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poppers
Terry,
Mysticism is something other than what I am pointing to. Mystical states are altered states of consciousness that come and go, and are just something else that can mislead you as to your real nature. What I am pointing to is what mystical states arise in - the simple, ordinary everyday awareness. It is so ordinary that it gets overlooked, yet it is so transformational that people usually brush off its significance, thinking, "What's the big deal about that?"
It is this awareness that you really are, and it lies beneath all ideas about what it is, hence the "out of your head" reference. Mental activity tends to obscure it, so any way to see what is prior to the mind is helpful.
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Terry
It is this awareness that you really are, and it lies beneath all ideas about what it is, hence the "out of your head" reference. Mental activity tends to obscure it, so any way to see what is prior to the mind is helpful.
Mental activity tends to obscure it? !!!!
In life we go from here...............................................to....................................................................................here.
That "here" on the far right is death.
Along the way we make each day amount to something according to our awareness of conditions surrounding us. You might even say each day is a journey in which we start out with a status quo and end up better off or worse off on the edge of extremes, or, we make no progress whatsoever.
A rational mind weighs facts. An irrational mind rules nothing out. A rational mind rules out the non-essential. Knowing the difference and acting on that difference is what intelligence is about.
If our life is to have a purpose which serves what we choose life to be to our eventual betterment, we can't waste either our time or our decisions on the irrelevent or the imaginary.
Religion wastes so much time on the imaginary all dressed up as the essential it is a fraud that eats in to our quality of existence and fools us that we are better off than we actually are.
For one thing, religion convinces us we have allies that are invisible and invincible. But, if we call on those invisible allies in a time of emergency we get absolutely nothing in return! We are entirely alone.
Another thing too; occupying our decision-making with false information is misleading. We may as well plan a vacation to Valhalla and use a cartoon map to plot our course.
I just don't have time (or any inclination) to waste my mind in pursuit of nonsense no matter how invisibly "possible" the nonsense is.
People with an appetite for "what if" and "maybe" are having a jolly old time I'm sure. However, that's their neurosis and not mine. The older I get the more real life becomes as I approach the end of all things. Why not have a few precious years of rational thinking unsullied by crap, conjecture, whim, magic or illusory bunkum?
Mysticism is creating an alternative to the actual reality by simply believing the one you create in your own mind is superior and pretending the real one isn't there at all. If that tickles your gumbo; more power to you. 20 years of it were quite enough for me, thank you.
T.
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aniron
There was a time before He began creating that Jehovah was alone and, much as any adolescent about to embark upon what life will ultimately be, He had to choose what He would become."
Just because He was alone and had not created. Why does it mean that He didn't have the the attributes and power of God.
Does a person cease to exist because they live on their own?
Trinitarians would argue He was not "alone".
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Terry
Just because He was alone and had not created. Why does it mean that He didn't have the the attributes and power of God. Does a person cease to exist because they live on their own?
Trinitarians would argue He was not "alone".
I'm thinking you didn't read my original post which EXPLAINED the above.
To possess the identity of God it is necessary to possess the attributes which define God in terms of what God is.
For example, I can call myself a Rock Star. But, if I don't play music or perform anywhere which conforms in substance with such a claim I am delusional or silly or lying---but, I AM NOT a Rock Star. Understand? I might tell people I am a Rock Star and may even get some of them to believe it; however, the reality of my life is not created by the gullible people believing the nonsense I tell them when it conflicts with the facts.
So too with God. Ask yourself what the definition of God is in any meaningful way and you'll end up with a list of defining attributes which serves to distinguish one sort of living personality from all others. These distinguishing attributes are what the above statement is challenging.
To be a Creator you must create. BEFORE you create anything you are NOT a creator.
To be ETERNAL you must exist throughout all time and this cannot ever conform to a STATE OF BEING logically for the simple reason that ALL TIME has not been exhausted. That is like declaring a winner in a horse race BEFORE the race is finished. The best you can say is that one certain horse is a "potential" winner. (But then, so are they all!)
To be ALL-KNOWING there has to be "something" to know. BEFORE creation there was not YET anything at all TO know.
To be Good and alone in all the universe is not to be "good" at all since there is nothing BAD possible. There are no "others" to wrong or mistreat or harm in any way.
Are you beginning to get the hang of this?
God cannot DE FACTO be GOD at all if there ever was a time BEFORE he began creating.
The "Trinitarian" argument is not one of numerical logic on the one hand (since God is said to be ONE god) or even descriptive identity on the other (to be ONE you cannot at the same time be other than ONE or you become two or three, etc. which is by definition NOT one.)
That is why the best that can ever be said from such an irrational and inane argument that it purports to say something and in the act of saying it destroys itself utterly.
I might here add that the sole purpose of mystics is to disconnect your rational mind from its function of guarding the entrance to your mind so that they can, like burglars, enter at will and do as they so choose with your thinking and ultimately your will to do their bidding.
Religion is mysticism. The FIRST principle of religion is to destroy your ego, your self-confidence, your rational mind and your willingness to only accept logical reality into your thoughts. The mystic persuades you that certain non-existent things just might.....might.....maybe...be somehow possible.....someway you cannot understand.......AND THEN THEIR FOOT IS IN YOUR DOOR and you cannot lock it again.
When you allow these burglars the run of your house you should not be surprised when they make off with your most valuable possessions which will include your rational mind and your willing servitude to their nonsensical "cause".
T.