MAN: to blame? GOD: benign and caring? What is the whole truth?

by Terry 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry

    Almost every Watchtower publication we've ever seen begins in the Garden of Eden.

    We are told the Earth was created for man. We are told man was given a Paradise and that his disobedience introduced to the world sin and death. Man ruined the wonderful, gentle and peaceful plan of God.

    That is the story we are told. But, wait!

    Let us subtract man from the consideration of how things were on Earth by going pre-history and looking at the pre-sin, pre-Fall of Man situation in nature. Before man, before the Fall you would have Earth unsullied by Satan and disobedience and pretty much things would be under the exact nature of what God had created. Right, are you with me?

    Okay, what do we find there?

    Rampant competition between species locked in a life or death struggle for survival; that is what we find. Weapons and defenses are everywhere evident in thorns, thistles, poisons and such in plants to horns, fangs, claws, armour-plating and venom in animals. Are you willing to look at this NATURAL situation and give your concept of God a big THUMB'S UP?

    How long did this eat or be eaten scenario continue? What has science revealed about the length of this godly creation BEFORE man?

    We are talking a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Millions and millions of years.

    Are you willing to say all this competition, this struggle, this orgy of eating, fighting, struggling, swallowing, ripping and bleeding confirms your demand that a GOD is behind the design? What sort of God is this?

    Is it any wonder no religious person I've ever met will face this and discuss it without instantly dismissing it and turning a blind eye?

    The idea of a sweet, loving, benign Creator who created Earth just for man DOES NOT SQUARE with millions and millions of years of kill or be killed survival of the fittest plant and animal existence. No way.

    You have to account for the facts. Even the myth of Genesis doesn't account for the facts. It tries mightily to introduce conflict as the fault of man. But, the Bible writers simply did not know about prehistory and the fossil evidence of countless generations of devoured meat and digested living matter that had come and gone a billion times before they sat down to concoct their tale of the Garden of Paradise and man's inept and insane behavior.

    Nope, if you are going to insist there is an intelligent design behind Earth, you have to account for the truth of the evidence, the whole truth of the evidence and nothing but the truth of the evidence. Death, fear, deception, struggle, bloodshed and chaos were all about life in its very nature from the get-go. Man is a late-commer. You can't blame him for everything.

    Terry

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Excellent post. I have never been able to get a satisfactory answer from a religionist about this logical contradiction. If god has allowed all these horrors to continue unchecked, and if HE is the ultimate creator of EVERYTHING in the universe (that would have to include good and evil....and satan) than he is ultimately responsible for whatever he has created.

    Religionists evade the question by saying "man chose" the path of sin.....NONSENSE!! If god created man, he created us with the ability to sin, and that is not a question of free will. If he gave us free will, he should have been willing and prepared to deal with the possible consequences of giving us free will!!

    Finally, god had a "choice" in the garden of eden.....he could have gotten rid of that pesky little satan right there and then and avoided all the ensuing horrors that were unleashed upon his naive "children" (the human race).....instead, he "took the bet" with satan, and allowed humanity to suffer as a result.

    Would any loving parent allow their children to suffer these horrors? Would you do everything in your power to prevent harm from coming to your children? My guess would be yes. Even the imperfect legal systems set up by mere mortal men have been established to protect children and the innocent.

    Man, is morally superior to god.

  • Terry
    Terry
    Man, is morally superior to god.



    I firmly consider the possibility that man PROJECTS outward the concepts which embody the "God" he then believes in. That is why people pray silently; they are just talking to themselves.

    Man can project a moral superiorty which he himself doesn't practice and then judge himself via God for his "failure".

    It is called having it both ways.

    T.

  • ICBehindtheCurtain
    ICBehindtheCurtain

    Terry --- I appreciate your knowledge, and I really admire you.

    Let us subtract man from the consideration of how things were on Earth by going pre-history and looking at the pre-sin, pre-Fall of Man situation in nature. ; Before man, before the Fall you would have Earth unsullied by Satan and disobedience and pretty much things would be under the exact nature of what God had created. ; Right, are you with me?

    In case you didn't know, I don't believe in the Genesis account, the tidy little package of man's fall, and therefore all the calamity, nah I don't buy it, besides whoever wrote Genesis borrowed the idea and added to it from more ancient peoples.

    Rampant competition between species locked in a life or death struggle for survival. ; Weapons and defenses are everywhere evident in thorns, thistles, poisons and such in plants to horns, fangs, claws, armour-plating and venom in animals. ; ; Are you willing to look at this NATURAL situation and give your concept of God a big THUMB'S UP?

    How long did this eat or be eaten scenario continue? What has science revealed about the length of this godly creation BEFORE man?

    We are talking a loooooooooooooooooooooooong time. Millions and millions of years.

    Are you willing to say all this competition, this struggle, this orgy of eating, fighting, struggling, swallowing, ripping and bleeding confirms your demand that a GOD is behind the design? ; ; What sort of God is this?

    Yes I know that it was eat or be eaten, and only the strongest survived back then, a very violent time indeed. Perhaps there's a reason why dinosaurs existed, maybe they did something played some kind of role to make the conditions we live in today possible, I also don't know if God runs the show here on earth, or if another of his creations does, or if we were just put here and left to our own devices, if any superior being is supposed to oversee things here, then he is asleep at the wheel or, he is an evil and vindictive being.

    Is it any wonder no religious person I've ever met will face this and discuss it without instantly dismissing it and turning a blind eye?

    I'm not dismissing it, but then I'm not religious either, I'm only choosing to look at it more objectively, and I might decide to disagree with it.

    The idea of a sweet, loving, benign Creator who created Earth just for man DOES NOT SQUARE with millions and millions of years of kill or be killed survival of the fittest plant and animal existence. ; No way.

    Like I said before, maybe there was a reason why these things had to be as they were, maybe not.

    You have to account for the facts. ; Even the myth of Genesis doesn't account for the facts. ; It tries mightily to introduce conflict as the fault of man. But, the Bible writers simply did not know about prehistory and the fossil evidence of countless generations of devoured meat and digested living matter that had come and gone a billion times before they sat down to concoct their tale of the Garden of Paradise and man's inept and insane behavior.

    I agree.

    Nope, if you are going to insist there is an intelligent design behind Earth, you have to account for the truth of the evidence, the whole truth of the evidence and nothing but the truth of the evidence. ; Death, fear, deception, struggle, bloodshed and chaos were all about life in its very nature from the get-go. ; ; Man is a late-commer. You can't blame him for everything.

    Like I said, we cannot know everything, no one has survived from millions of years ago to tell us all the why's of our existence. Terry I've never spoken to an atheist before, I am curious to know why you feel as you do, please believe me, I'm not being sarcastic or critical, I really want to know. Is it anger at the world conditions and the fact that he or it doesn't intervene? Or just lack of valid evidence.

    IC

  • Terry
    Terry
    Like I said, we cannot know everything, no one has survived from millions of years ago to tell us all the why's of our existence. Terry I've never spoken to an atheist before, I am curious to know why you feel as you do, please believe me, I'm not being sarcastic or critical, I really want to know. Is it anger at the world conditions and the fact that he or it doesn't intervene? Or just lack of valid evidence.

    I don't call myself atheist. I call myself agnostic. That means I DON'T KNOW. If I were atheist I'd KNOW there was no god. I DON'T KNOW.

    Being an atheist, it seems to me, is an act of faith as well.

    I'm in the position I'm in because every explanation offered to support the notion of God does not withstand rational tests for me. I'm still open to a rational presentation. If I were atheist I would not be open.

    Terry

  • trevor
    trevor

    I agree with you Terry.

    Most religion is all about, how it should be, how it should have been., how it will be, how it might be. It all evades one inescapable fact. How it really is. Reality is the only truth. All the rest is conjecture.

    I do believe in a pervading intelligence that is responsible for life but why should we assume that it is benign or gentle - or that it has a definite plan. The world is the only way it could be, given the forces that brought it into existence.

    When people talk of god, life, forgiveness, right, wrong and so on……..I have only one answer.

    That’s the way it is!

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    I do believe in a pervading intelligence that is responsible for life but why should we assume that it is benign or gentle - or that it has a definite plan.

    What do you gain by believing in a 'pervading intelligence'? What evidence is there for this? Why does some "entity" need to be "responsible" for life, if, as you said,

    reality is just what it is?

  • ICBehindtheCurtain
    ICBehindtheCurtain

    Thank you for responding Terry, I really thought you were atheist, I guess I am more of a Deist but do lean on the agnostic side at times, if God or whoever it is would speak to everyone from heaven, this would all be settled, that in itself makes me wonder, why if he has all this power does he not communicate with us? until he does I think more and more people are going to join our ranks. What I find interesting is that we were taught that people that left the "Truth" became evil, because Jehovah removed his spirit from them and Satan would then take over, they would basically lead a horrible life, become immoral, a real monster, what CRAP!!!! I now see the reality, people that leave the cult, are generally intelligent, freethinking and overall good people.

    IC

  • VM44
    VM44

    The scribes who wrote the early writings were trying to write something to control the people, and make them behave in a semi-civilized manner.

    The world back then was very like the world of Conan the Barbarian, probably worse even!

    --VM44

  • That Nate Guy
    That Nate Guy

    Here's part of a chapter from my book Jehovah Unmasked. Your question is the most important one I cover in my book, JEHOVAH UNMASKED! The True Identity of the Bible-God Revealed!

    http://jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/JEHOVAH_UNMASKED/jehovah_unmasked.htm

    THE FATHER OF LIES

    Remember that Jesus said that Satan is "The Father of Lies." (John 8:44) Well, let us look at Genesis in that light. Let us see who told the Original Lie. If you read the story of the Garden of Eden, the Jehovah gods tell Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because "in that day thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17) On the other hand, the Serpent promised them "Ye shall not surely die. For God (the elohim, the gods) doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (the elohim), knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5)

    Who was telling a lie? The story goes on to show that Adam and Eve did not die when they ate the fruit. Far from dying "in that day" Adam lived to be nine hundred and thirty years old! (Genesis 5:5) The Bible also states, "Their eyes were opened" (Genesis 2:7) just as the Serpent promised they would be! The Jehovah gods even come right out and confirm the truthfulness of the promise of the Serpent: "Behold, the humans have become as one of Us, they know good and evil." (Genesis 3:22) It was the Jehovah gods that lied, not the Serpent. It is the Jehovah gods that are the Original Liars, who told the Original Lie. The promise of the Serpent was true! The Serpent is actually the "good guy" in this story, not the Jehovah gods! I'll bet this is not how you were brainwashed to read the Garden of Eden story. You've been blinded from seeing the obvious!

    Most Christians also overlook the glaring fact that Adam and Eve were already dying before they ever ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil! A careful reading of Genesis 3:22-24 will demonstrate this to the reader. "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat and live forever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed Cherubims at the east of the Garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life." Obviously, until they could eat of the tree of life and live forever, they were doomed to die. In other words, the Jehovah gods had already fashioned the first couple mortal and dying or they would not have needed to eat of the tree of life to live forever!

    So, their death was not a result of anything they had done. It was the result of the flawed and malicious workmanship of the Jehovah gods who fashioned them in a mortal dying condition. Then the Jehovah gods barred their way to the tree of life out of jealousy because Adam and Eve had become as gods. "I, the LORD thy God, am a Jealous God!" (Exodus 20:5) If you wish to have a literal translation of the Hebrew "in that day thou shalt surely die", it comes out to "in the day of thine eating of it, dying thou dost die." (Young's Literal Translation, emphasis mine) In other words, "you are already dying, but this act will kill you this very day." Which merely confirms what I have said about the first couple having been fashioned mortal and dying, and reaffirms the Jehovah gods were lying about their dying that very day. Here is an illuminating quotation from the Testimony of Truth, a Gnostic Christian scripture:

    "The Jewish Law says that when god told Adam, ‘From all of the trees you may partake and eat, except for the tree in the middle of the Paradise of Eden. You must not eat any of it, because on the very day you do partake of it, you will most definitely die.’ The serpent, however, being more wise than all the other creatures in the Paradise of Eden, convinced Eve by saying to her, ‘Your spiritual eyes will be opened the very day you partake of the fruit on the tree in the middle of the Paradise of Eden, and you shall become as the gods.’ Eve did as the serpent suggested, and took some fruit from the tree and ate it, and she also gave some to her mate, Adam. That very instant they realized their nakedness, so they found some fig leaves and fashioned clothes for themselves from the leaves. Next, god was walking in the Paradise of Eden in the evening. When Adam saw god he hid himself from view, and god called out, saying ‘Adam, where are you? Adam called out in response and said, ‘I am hiding under the fig tree.’ In that instant god knew that Adam had partaken of the fruit on the forbidden tree. God said to Adam, ‘Who was it that told you this?’ Adam replied ‘It was the female you gave me.’ Then the woman responded and said, "I was taught by the serpent.’ So god cursed the serpent. Then god said ‘Look now, Adam has become as one of the gods, he knows good and evil. Let us cast Adam out of the garden of Paradise so that he cannot partake of the Tree of Life and become Immortal by doing so.

    "What kind of god is this? With evil intent he forbid Adam from partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and he also said ‘Where are you Adam?’ Why did god ask this? God doesn’t possess foreknowledge? Would he not have already known what had happened from the very beginning of time? Then god spoke and declared ‘From out of the Paradise of Eden shall We cast Adam, so that he cannot partake of the fruit of the Tree of Life and become Immortal.’ This reveals that he is nothing but a malign spiteful god. What other sort of god could he be? Those who read this, yet do not recognize this god for who he really is, their blindness is complete. Then this god said ‘I am a jealous god, so I will punish the sins of the fathers by punishing their children even as far as the fourth generation. I will harden their heart, and bring blindness to their minds, so they can neither know nor understand these things that have been said.’ Yet it was to those who actually believe in him and serve him that he said these things!"

    Most mainstream Christians try to weasel around the fact that Adam and Eve did not die the day they ate the fruit by saying "but they died spiritually." Where does the text say that or even hint at that? Nowhere! The text is very straightforward. What mainstream Christians are doing is called eisegesis, which is the opposite of exegesis. Exegesis is to "lead out" the meaning of a text by sticking to what it actually says. Eisegesis is to "read into" a text a meaning that accords with a preconceived notion or doctrine one already has established in one's mind, or to rescue some cherished dogma. Eisegesis is intellectual and spiritual dishonesty, driven by spiritual blindness and mule-headedness, or even by demonic possession.

    One of the Gnostic scripture discovered in Egypt, which dates from the first century and is titled The Apocalypse of Adam, gives an illuminating version of the creation of Adam and Eve. In this Apocalypse, Adam says:

    "When "god" fashioned your mother and I from the clay, I walked with her in the glory she had once known in the Aion from which we had issued forth. Knowledge of the eternal God did she also give unto me. The likeness of the great Eternals was given to both of us, for we were more exalted than the "god" that created us, as well as the powers with him, with whom we were not acquainted. Then the Archon that ruled over all the Aions and the spiritual Rulers, in great wrath cut us in twain. Then the glory that was in our hearts took flight and departed from us. Thereafter, the eternal True God withdrew from us and we knew the True God no more. Since that day we have become acquainted with the things of death. Thereafter we recognized the "god" who fashioned us, for his abilities were not unknown to us. So we did his bidding in slavery and fear."

    It was pointed out to me that Genesis 2:16-17 and 3:1-2 make it plain that Adam and Eve were free to eat of the fruit of any and all trees in the Garden except the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Therefore, they were free to eat of the Tree of Life before they ate the forbidden fruit. If they did so, then my point about Adam and Eve already dying before they disobeyed the Jehovah gods would be erroneous. However, let me point out the plain, simple, and downright glaring fact that, according to Genesis 3:22-24, the Jehovah gods drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden precisely so they would not be able to eat of the Tree of Life and therefore become Immortal or Deathless ("Deathless" is the meaning of "immortal.")

    If they had already eaten the fruit of the Tree of Life, they would have already become Deathless, and the Jehovah gods driving them away from Eden becomes rather like locking the barn doors after the horses have already escaped! The genie would then be out of the bottle, so to speak, and the Jehovah god’s actions would be pointless because the first pair would have already achieved Immortality. Therefore, my point stands. Adam and Eve had not yet partaken of the Tree of Life, and were therefore already dying before they disobeyed the Jehovah gods. This means they were fashioned mortal and dying or there would have been no reason to have to eat of the Tree of Life!

    Some have tried to rescue the Traditional interpretation of the Eden story by bringing in a verse all the way from the New Testament (which is written in Koine Greek, not Hebrew), 2 Peter 3:8: "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day." Therefore, this line of reasoning goes, Adam and Eve did die "the day" they ate the forbidden fruit because the Jehovah gods were really talking about a "day" from their point of view, not a day from Adam and Eve’s point of view! This is nothing but a desperate ploy. I could do the same thing and bring in a verse that is written in Hebrew, Ezekiel 4:5-6: "For I have laid upon ye the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the House of Israel. And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on they right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year." Using this text, I can "prove" the "day" the Jehovah gods were talking about was actually a year, but Adam and Eve lived for hundreds of years, so the Jehovah gods were still lying!

    This entire line of interpretation is nonsensical and fallacious. Peter is discussing the second coming of Christ, not the Garden of Eden story! We are talking about Genesis and the Garden of Eden story, which is in the Hebrew language, so lets stick to Genesis and the Hebrew language to help us here. In Genesis, the Hebrew word for day ("yowm") means the time between morning and evening. (See Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon #3117) "And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the EVENING and the MORNING were the first DAY." (Genesis 1:5) The Hebrew day ends when the sun sets and a new day begins. In the land of the Hebrews, the sun sets over the Mediterranean Sea ("yam" see Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon #3220) Therefore, "yowm" literally means "the time between the setting of the sun over the sea." Adam and Eve did not die in the day they ate the forbidden fruit therefore the Jehovah gods lied to them. It’s that simple. (Some modern translations of the Bible, such as the New International Version, and others, leave the words "in that day" completely out of the text in an effort to sidestep this obvious problem. Most modern translations are not to be trusted. You must go beyond them by using an Interlinear and a good Lexicon such as Strong’s to get to the facts)

    Some have tried to rescue at least part of the Traditional interpretation by pointing out that the Serpent said "You shall not die," but Adam and Eve did die, therefore the Serpent was only telling a partial truth. First let me again point out that the Jehovah gods were telling a total lie even if the Serpent was telling a half-truth. However, the Serpent did not lie at all.

    Fundamentalists think the Serpent lied because they continue to read this account wearing the blinders of Tradition. We must keep this discussion in context, so lets review the context. The Jehovah gods had told Adam and Eve they would die the very day they ate of the tree. They did not. They lived for hundreds of years afterward. It was this lie of the Jehovah gods to which the Serpent responded. The Serpent was not talking about their ultimate demise hundreds of years in the future, but of the fact they would not die the day they ate of the fruit. Again, the Serpent told the whole truth, not a half-truth. Adam and Even did not die the day they ate the fruit. The Serpent was aware of their mortal condition, that the Jehovah gods had created Adam and Eve mortal and dying, or they would not have had to eat of the Tree of Life to live forever.

    Nathaniel J. Merritt Met. D.

    http://jcnot4me.com/Items/theology/JEHOVAH_UNMASKED/jehovah_unmasked.htm

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