Hey Tetra - statistically you can't make your claim about God.
If my God is money then statistically 'it ' exists, if my God is a superior intellect than my own, then again, 'it exists' , if my God is a person, ditto, if my God is an spirit that I can't see then statistics are meaningless since existence verified by non-spiritual means ceases to be a viable proof point, if God is a visible God then statistically loads of people claim to have seen 'Him,Her,it' but assuming you haven't you can only really collapse the statistics to what you think your God 'is' and then assuming your god hasn't fulfilled the crieria you accept as it's evidence then statistically you are spot on - your God has SO FAR failed to validate itself but heck - you look fairly young to me and you may change your mind on what your god is at any time so creating him/it/her:)
Statistically speaking - form an individual point of view - its very likely that the many gods that people choose to worship (be they whatever they are) must exist otherwise they wouldn't be their God - in fact God requires its/His/Her proven self existent for an individual to believe - it is a self defining statement. Let me play out this for you from 'my God' - I had a very personal experience (with 'God') that is the basis of my belief in God - therefore my God does/must exist for me. My God however cannot exist for you since you weren't there.
MAN: to blame? GOD: benign and caring? What is the whole truth?
by Terry 41 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
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Terry
i do not have faith in there being no god. i lack the belief. surely there is a difference in your world
Too deep for me!
T
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FlyingHighNow
I don't buy this, that the world fell because some ditzy woman, either Eve or Pandora was just a little too curious. Man has been failed by whatever god or gods is responsible for keeping things in order here. We did not fail the gods. How can they claim we did?
Most of us inherit crummy genes, crappy parents and much less than perfect economic circumstances. Maybe the Mormons have one thing right, maybe they do die and become Gods of their own earths and fail miserably at it. Maybe we should blame them. I realize I might offend sincere Mormons reading here. I don't mean to. I'm just on a rant. Life down here can stink and to blame us for it, well that's a huge cop out. I think most people do a wonderful job with what resources they have. I do not include George W. Bush amongst most people. He's one of the evil opportunists that exist amongst us. He is one who feeds off the regular and the poor. Whom do we blame George Bush on though? Utah did go Bush. And this is not all together serious. This post.
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tetrapod.sapien
Q,
If my God is money then statistically 'it ' exists, if my God is a superior intellect than my own, then again, 'it exists' , if my God is a person, ditto,
if you want to call those things a god, then whatever. the point is that we can verify that they exist, easily.
however, parsomony favours the most economic explanation statistcally. the one with the fewest assumptions.
so, i am afraid you are wrong in your statement that i cannot make my claim about god. it is, statistically speaking, the explanation with the fewest assumtions, and therefore more likely to be true than yours. which i might add, not only contains more assumtions about the universe, but unfalsifiable ones at that.
is it 100% true? i can't say. it's impossible. is it most likely to be true? yes.
if my God is an spirit that I can't see then statistics are meaningless since existence verified by non-spiritual means ceases to be a viable proof point
why? if it interacts with our world, then it is a natural phenomenon, and subject to science. and so far there is no scientific support of a god.
Let me play out this for you from 'my God' - I had a very personal experience (with 'God') that is the basis of my belief in God - therefore my God does/must exist for me. My God however cannot exist for you since you weren't there.
then you should collect James Randi's million dollar reward and prove me wrong.
remember Q, it's impossible to prove either way. enter parsimony. i would love to believe that a god exists, even if it were your god. however, if i had been there when you met your god, parsimony still would not be in favour of your explanation of the event, since it is more economic to assume that you have an hyperactive frontal lobe and a less than active parietal lobe.
TS
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tetrapod.sapien
terry,
Too deep for me!
"too deep" in which direction? ;)
TS
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Terry
Too deep? In which direction?
From the sole downward to the turf.
T.
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trevor
Terry Thanks for your comments. I have now returned this morning from a very late night. Returning to your original post - you said:
The idea of a sweet, loving, benign Creator who created Earth just for man DOES NOT SQUARE with millions and millions of years of kill or be killed survival of the fittest plant and animal existence. No way……..
Nope, if you are going to insist there is an intelligent design behind Earth, you have to account for the truth of the evidence, the whole truth of the evidence and nothing but the truth of the evidence. Death, fear, deception, struggle, bloodshed and chaos were all about life in its very nature from the get-go.
I agreed with you without qualification. Your last comment which I have highlighted is most interesting. The nature of life has shown a set pattern or nature which indicates it has no set plan or design. No ideal. It simply seeks to express itself in a physical world in any form it can. It has no regard for individual suffering as long as it manifests itself.
TS said: the amount of suffering in the "animal kingdom", far out weighs even the amount of suffering that humans experience, for that matter.
it doesn't mean there is no joy. but I think you perhaps over-rate it.
From our perspective this may appears so. But the life that pervades all living things does not view this world in a subjective way. It simply IS. However IT IS right and correct because there is no bench mark. Whether humans survive as a race, cease to be is not of any concern to the life force because it does not feel concern. Life was here before humans and will be here if we cease to be. It will find other ways to express its self. What we make of life is our choice. This is our moment. The life force has forever.
If planet earth ceased to exist life would simply not be manifesting in this dimension. It would find other places and ways to express itself. If a million years passed before conditions were right for this it would be of no consequence.
The difference between a corpse and a person is that one contains the life force. The other does not. The living person does not contain ‘a’ life force but ‘the’ life force. There is only one. The same life that all living things contain. It is everywhere all the time seeking the opportunity to manifest physically if the conditions are right. Its intelligence is not conscious but works at a subtle level over vast amounts of time.
Life is not bound by time, only the manifestations in a physical world are measured by time. There is intelligence in the way animals and plants adapt and improve in a way that indicates the life that they contain is working to move away from chaos.
Recognising the nature of life is very different from worshiping a god that sits at some distance and designs and plans and sets rules and then punishes man for not obeying him.
Now some people will read all this and conclude I stayed out too late last night and ask for proof. Others will see exactly what I am trying to express through the clumsiness of words.
Someone close to me could not understand what the hell I was talking about for years so I stopped talking about it. One day his wife left him and then he had a bad accident. A sudden shift of consciousness took place and he totally changed. Now he can see what was always there. His joy in living has hugely increased. He realizes what he is part of and how amazing our world is. It is to be celebrated. He does not believe in a god or follow a religion. He is fully part of life.
Look at any living creature and wait for it to look back at you. As you become conscious of each other you are looking at that life force in action. It can exist without you but for now it exists through you and in you.
Proof is not possible. Awareness of what is going on and acceptance of reality is required. If being alive in a world humming with life is not enough evidence then what more are we looking for?
trevor
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IT Support
Terry,
I don't call myself atheist. I call myself agnostic. That means I DON'T KNOW. If I were atheist I'd KNOW there was no god. I DON'T KNOW.
Being an atheist, it seems to me, is an act of faith as well.As others have said, I agree that there is a spectrum of shades of meaning here. At either end of the spectrum are theists and atheists.
I would suggest in the middle are agnostic theists (do not know, but tending towards belief in god) and agnostic atheists (do not know, but tending towards no belief in god).
Does that make sense? Is it the same as 'weak atheists'? So are there also 'weak theists'?
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Carmel
THE UNKNOWABLE ESSENCE
All the people have formed a god in the world of thought, and that form of their own imagination they worship; when the fact is that the imagined form is finite and the human mind is infinite. Surely the infinite is greater than the finite, for imagination is accidental while the mind is essential; surely the essential is greater than the accidental.
Therefore consider: All the sects and peoples worship their own thought; they create a god in their own minds and acknowledge him to be the creator of all things, when that form is a superstition -- thus people adore and worship imagination.
That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven -- but the condition is unknown.
All the philosophers and the doctors knew that It is, but they were perplexed in the comprehension of Its existence and were at last discouraged, and in great despair they left this world. For the comprehension of the condition and mysteries of that Reality of realities and Mystery of mysteries there is need for another power and another sense. That power and sense is not possessed by mankind, therefore they have not found any information. For example: If a man possess the power of hearing, the power of tasting, the power of smelling and the power of feeling, but no power of seeing, he cannot see. Hence, through the powers and senses present in man the realization of the Unseen Reality, which is pure and holy above the reach of doubts, is impossible. Other powers are needed and other senses required. If those powers and senses are obtained, then information can be had; otherwise, not.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 381)
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tetrapod.sapien
trevor,
i agree with much of what you said. i don't understand what it has to do with suffering, but i think we are talking about very similar phenomena with different words. for example:
Its intelligence is not conscious but works at a subtle level over vast amounts of time.
you call it life force, but i call it natural selection or even evolution on a universal scale as a constant.
Proof is not possible. Awareness of what is going on and acceptance of reality is required. If being alive in a world humming with life is not enough evidence then what more are we looking for?
it depends on your wording, LOL. there is much proof if what you mean by "acceptance of reality" is what i call "biology".
TS