MY CHALLENGE TO FUNDAMENTALISTS/LITERALISTS (page 2)

Abaddon

I find a major problem nowadays when I try and see whether claims for prohecy made by people are anything other than wishful thinking, is that Monty Python unavoidably comes up, like this bit from Life of Brian;

BLOOD & THUNDER PROPHET
... and shall ride forth on a serpents' back, and the eyes shall be red
with the blood of living creatures, and the whore of Babylon shall rise
over the hill of excitement and throughout the land there will be a great
rubbing of parts ...
FALSE PROPHET
And he shall bear a nine-bladed sword. Nine-bladed. Not two. Or five
or seven, but nine, which he shall wield on all wretched sinners and that
includes you sir, and the horns shall be on the head ...
BORING PROPHET
And there shall in that time be rumours of things going astray, and there
will be a great confusion as to where things really are, and nobody will
really know where lieth those little things with the sort of raffia work
base, that has an attachment they will not be there... ...
At this time a friend shall lose his friends's hammer and the young shall
not know where lieth the things possessed by their fathers that their
fathers put there only just the night before ...

... all this talk of curds and honey... in England we have a phrase "Don't play silly buggers with me".

The idea that Joe Hoaver should encode bits it is really quite important that we know get sillier the longer you look at it. I mean, if god knows the hairs of our heads, and when a sparrow falls, and will not destroy a coty if there is even one rightous man in it, then it's not credible that he base the chances of our everlasting souls surviving on how well we comprehended a bit of Hebrew gobbledegook.

Of course, such a propositon (that he would base the survival etc. on our non-literal interpretation of a passage) is an absolute essential to building up a heirachy in an organsiation, developing a sound business model, and maximising penetration and 'profit'.

Take IT departments for example. I've managed one, and am not super-technical myself. However, I know enough to know that IT workers make great use of the fact that their skills are often falsely enmeshed with some aurora of 'secret knowledge'. I've known network administrators who act like they are the custodians of the holy flame of Zorastor. This layer of 'mystery' means they can take three times longer than neccesary to do a job and charge twice as much, and then if it all goes wrong use a explanation that even if it is true is incomprehensible to those it is provided to, thus avoiding blame or censure.

Religions have followed much the same path.

Nate Merit

Hi Narkissos

As a Gnostic, I'm all for an idividualized, non-authoritarian, nonliteral approach to matters spiritual. I go into quite a bit of detail in my book as to how Christianity was snatched from the hands of Gnostics by clunk-thud-bang Literalists to become the most dogmatic and authoritarian religion the world had ever seen. Before the advent of Islam.

Right now I'm ten chapters deep into writing a book about my expriences as a WTBTS apparatchik. I was not your typical JW. I became involved at fifteen, left at sixteen and a half to enjoy the whole sex-drugs-rock n roll scene, then became involved again several months before my eighteenth birthday, and then was disfellowshipped a few months after my nineteenth birthday for more of same. Getting disfellowshipped sent my mind compltely down the tubes for about six months because this was in 1973, just a couple years before 1975. I believed all that Armaggedon Madness with my whole being.

Anyway, I root for the Brooklyn Oracles to lose.
Nate

Nate Merit

Hi EVANESENCE!

I don't see any similarities between the historical-grammatical context and the way the NT writers used this verse. "Context" is not confined to simply a few verses immediately fore and aft, but the wider context as well.

Also, the Hebrew word almah doesn't mean virgin, it simply means maiden or young woman. The gospel authors bypassed the Hebrew text for the Septuagint, completely and utterly destroying the actual context. By the way, the context of this verse has to do with events occuring back in Isaiah's time, not a future time. This person, being still a fundy, is still utterly unable to remove the fundy-glasses for even a few moments and see what Isaiah (minus Matt) is talking about.

Also, this fundy who wrote you should get back to me as soon as they meet the challenge, which is to read ALL of the OT verses quoted in the NT in both their immediate and distant context. Fundies are too used to seeing verses in isolation, as disconnected Oracular statements rather than as the web and woof of a wider work.

Yours NOT in Joe Hovah,
Nate

Nate Merit

BRAVO Abbadon!

Nate

Carmel

I'm struck by how much of Protestantism is fixated on "the law" and how human institutions of authority were so evil in that they wanted to have a "king". I'm equally struck by how many exjws are fixated on "control" issues. Coming from a high control publishing company that masquarades as a religion, I can understant the constant sensitivity to "organization" and "authority" issues, but in and of itself, authority and control are not the bogeyman. The abuse thereof is what is at issue. I doubt humans would have survived as a species if it had not organized into clans, tribes, city states, and now nations. Collective behavior, whether under the banner of politics or religion, or labor for that matter, has always been productive of results greater than the individual parts. Likewise, those institutions have struggled to effect longevity and resisted change both superficial and fundamental because the humans that are in positions of leadership are want to give up their positions of influence (power, control).

Humanity, in spite of examples to the contrary, is moving away from dysfunctional political arrangements and outworn religious patterns to more utilitarian and useful structures. The new paradigms call for more democratic, principal based leadership, more empowerment of "little people" and the nations they make up. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but global "organization" is called for if we want to protect the environment, have the freedoms we relish and enjoy the stimulation of discourse freely exchanged. Such a society still must have institutions of authority, which must be legitimized by the rank and file. Anarchy is not and never has been a viable option to willful collaborative behavior. Religious organization is no different. I don't see the idea of religion as an evil, only the abuse that comes from some who see opportunity to self agrandizement and ego satisfaction through holding others in their grasp. Those that claim all religion is motivated by the need to control are unfairly painting the positive urges stimulated by reflection and contemplative behavior with the broad paint brush of evil.

I would urge those that use the terms "all religion" or "no religion" etc. be sure they are intimately familiar with ALL religion. Having spent many decades familiarizing myself with the ideas, beliefs and patterns of thought of the worlds religions, I still don't feel qualified to be fast and loose with blanket statements thereof.

carmel

Nate Merit

Hello Carmel

What connection, exactly, does your response have to the subject matter of the post? I'm no slouch in the IQ department Carmel, and I detect no direct connection at all. If a connection does exist it must be so oblique as to be invisible.

Nathan

Evanescence

Nate, I created a thread on a Fundamentalist forum for you

http://p094.ezboard.com/fcatholicreformationfrm22.showMessage?topicID=4286.topic

the people there do a lot of Catholic church bashing though....

Evanescence

Shining One

>Also, the Hebrew word almah doesn't mean virgin, it simply means maiden or young woman.

That is not the case at all, it CAN be taken two ways. You assume too much.

<The gospel authors bypassed the Hebrew text for the Septuagint, completely and utterly destroying the actual context.

Oh really? And it just took two thousand years and some guy named Nate figured out what centuries worth of scholars have missed?

>By the way, the context of this verse has to do with events occuring back in Isaiah's time, not a future time. This person, being still a fundy, is still utterly unable to remove the fundy-glasses for even a few moments and see what Isaiah (minus Matt) is talking about.

You have never actually studied prophetic language, partial/future fullfillment and how it applies to scripture?

>Also, this fundy who wrote you should get back to me as soon as they meet the challenge, which is to read ALL of the OT verses quoted in the NT in both their immediate and distant context. Fundies are too used to seeing verses in isolation, as disconnected Oracular statements rather than as the web and woof of a wider work.

Where are the peer reviews for your work, Nate? Who are you and what claim do you make as an authority?
Rex

Shining One

Hi Carmel,
Are you one of the 'big brother' types to run this new attempt at communism. You are quacking elitist, liberal socialism that puts people like Chuck Shumer and Nancy Pelosi in charge of our wallets and our freedoms...
>Humanity, in spite of examples to the contrary, is moving away from dysfunctional political arrangements and outworn religious patterns to more utilitarian and useful structures. The new paradigms call for more democratic, principal based leadership, more empowerment of "little people" and the nations they make up. It may be a hard pill to swallow, but global "organization" is called for if we want to protect the environment, have the freedoms we relish and enjoy the stimulation of discourse freely exchanged. Such a society still must have institutions of authority, which must be legitimized by the rank and file.
Communism and its offshoot, socialism and the politically correct despots are a bigger promblem than what they propose to fix. Goodbye to our constitution and sovereignty.
Rex

kid-A

the people there do a lot of Catholic church bashing though....

MY CHALLENGE TO FUNDAMENTALISTS/LITERALISTS

Share this