I believe that God knows all possible futures. He knows how likely we are to make each choice, the outcome of each choice we make, and how our choices interact. The kicker is that He wants us to have that choice, so to most of us it looks like either He doesn't know or He doesn't care. But I believe that, like a parent raising a child, He prefers that we learn from our mistakes. Our growing population and civilization is proof that we are capable of doing so.
Is god all knowing?
by gringojj 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
-
-
gringojj
Yes Joel I understand what you are saying. It is concievable to think a reasonable god would allow someone to make a choice and deal with the consequences.
But what about a 5 yr old being molested?
Why should they be punished? Why should they have to deal with the consequences? Thats where you lose me.
-
Terry
I believe that God knows all possible futures. He knows how likely we are to make each choice, the outcome of each choice we make, and how our choices interact. The kicker is that He wants us to have that choice, so to most of us it looks like either He doesn't know or He doesn't care. But I believe that, like a parent raising a child, He prefers that we learn from our mistakes. Our growing population and civilization is proof that we are capable of doing so.
This reduces all "possiblity" into mere conformity. Actions conform to laws of nature and reactions to laws of physics. God, in such a scenario, is just an accountant tabulating columns of debits and credits toward a "bottom line" which is the "future". Human choice devolves into puppetry and God the ultimate puppeteer. After all, it is He who made the rules of all of nature and who constrains what is possible and impossible by his will.
Which all means what? FUTILITY!
It, then, is always futile for God to do anything anyway inasmuch as he is trapped by even his own nature! The empty void of "knowing" what one has caused to happen nullifes any purpose to causing it. Why? Because, to create is to allow change toward some purpose better than what already IS.
Think of it this way. GOD, being perfection, can only create something with a will of its own that is EQUAL TO or LESS THAN what He himself is. The Bible's version of things tell us God chose to create the LESS THAN equal entity and it was mankind. This AUTOMATICALLY guaranteed all that proceeded from this LESS THAN equal entity would naturally be LESS THAN perfect.
All of history and all of the future are inescapably the conclusions locked in from the outset to the premise of God's LESS THAN equal creations.
That is, if you accept the Bible and this nonsensical philosophy of a Supreme and All-Knowing being as the First Cause.
Terry
-
trevor
James Thomas - Perhaps God is the Infinity which all flows from and exists in, and there is no knowing. Perhaps, to even God, it is all an endless and wondrous mystery.
Terry - this nonsensical philosophy of a Supreme and All-Knowing being as the First Cause.
The same thing expressed differently? Never thought I’d see the day!
-
JamesThomas
The same thing expressed differently? Never thought I’d see the day!
Actually, Terry's views of the absurdity and harm of deity worship, is very much as my own. I have pretty much agreed wholeheartedly with 90+% of Terry's very insightful and lucid posts. It's true though that we express quite differently. For one thing I have barely one tenth of Terry's talented way with words.
I swear one day I'm going to just sit and read James Thomas' posts from start to finish.
Dear wonderlustguy, be prepared to be bored to death. I basically sing only one song.....off-key and not all that well. j
-
tetrapod.sapien
the paradox of omnipotence is actually what got me thinking about atheists in the first place.
for example: it's not a disproof of god's existence, but the paradox of the rock is one that sent my little JW brain spinning. how could great jehovah be subject to logic so easily? there had to be more to this! it was the begining of the begining. it goes like this:
if god is omnipotent, then he can lift any rock he wants. but if he is omnipotent, he can also create a rock that is too heavy for him to lift. but if there is a rock that is too heavy for him to lift, then he is not omnipotent.
theists will do all sorts of theological and other mental gymnastics to get around this. saying stuff like: "well, he would never do such a thing" etc etc. still, the logic was there, and i think i damages god's street cred for sure.
omniscience is another paradox.
TS
-
Dansk
Hi Terry
That is, if you accept the Bible and this nonsensical philosophy of a Supreme and All-Knowing being as the First Cause.
That is only YOUR opinion. I'm not saying you are wrong, but how do you know you are right?
I have my own ideas on an all-knowing God, but that doesn't make me any more near the truth than you or anyone else. Truth is, none of us know! I'm happy with who I am and what I do now. I know not whether there is a Supreme Creator or not.
I hate labels. Unfortunately, we are generally stuck with labels because of the religions we are born into. Instead of seeing men, "we" tend to see a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc., and attribute to him/her all the stigmas associated with that particular label. I'm out of all that now (being a JW actually made things worse at the time). I now attribute no label to a person. He/she is conditioned by their upbringing in their parents' religion.
But that doesn't mean an Almighty God doesn't exist. It doesn't mean one does, either, I grant you. When we die we'll find out - or maybe even then we won't
I consider myself something of a Christian Buddhist now Another label? What I mean is that there is much beauty and freedom to be found, for me, in this method of reasoning. I don't have to believe in an Almighty God or accept the bible as truth - and much of what the Buddha had to say has been corrupted by man (isn't that always the case!). Where the Buddha had one message, which was basically instruction on why we are suffering the means to end that suffering, has become clouded by traditions and various school dogma. Same for Christianity.
Take the beauty from both religions and the essence of truth is there. I bathe in that essence.
Love,
Ian
-
zen nudist
the AID TO BIBLE UNDERSTANDING of JWs gave what at first seemed a valid compromise saying that, for example Genesis 18:20- shows a VERY non-omniscient god, who investigates the REPORT that had come to him.... and they go on to make a seemingly rational argument that just because God is all powerful does not mean he has to use all his powers in everything, so too, they continue that he would not have to use his infinite abilities to see the whole future, but selectively can scope out what he wants to know and thus prevents everything from being predetermined and giving man a true choice in his life affairs, etc..... but not long after reading that my mind came to a conclusion that something was fundamentally flawed with that view.
first off--- if the future exists already so that God can scope it, it really does not matter that he sees it all or sees only part of it when it comes to the question of predestined and predetermined as its a moot point, the future is already there to be seen and being ignorant does not change that it will happen the way its going to happen... and it is predestined or determined.
2nd if the future exists to be scoped, and God did not make it, who did? and since God obviously did not, then he is a puppet to fate and not an almighty anything nor even a creator as he had no real say in it.
3rd, if the future does not yet exist as I believe, but only the past and present exist as part of our collective awareness of the way the universe was and is and the only future is our guesses as to what may be, then no one, not even a god could foresee exact events thousands of years down the line because of what Scientific American Mag pointed out years ago...there is no way to avoid a gap in information which will grow exponentially and make any reading of any possible future, even if it is completely determined impossible....the reason is that any continuous function must be sample and since there is no real way to sample infinitely [fantasy beings can do anything but not real ones] there is always some missing data which grows exponetially. so the only way that a god could foresee the future is if he has the power to force it to become a certain way....which the bible god claims, yet that would also make that god responsible for all the evil that he foresees for nations and individuals like Judas, etc....not the best alternative, but one Calvin was willing to live with.
4rth, if an all knowing god exists outside of space and time who made every moment of time from beginning to end, then he is completely responsible for all of it, no freewill is possible.... the dogde that he did not make it all, but just knows it all from outside of time does not change that one bit as he would have known all before he set creation into existance unless of course he is not the creator just the observer and then who is on first?, I dont know, third base!
-
jstalin
One cannot be simultaneously omnipotent and omniscient. This is the conflict that finally sent me over the edge to atheism.
If God know everything which will happen, he knows what he is going to do at all points in the future. Therefore, he has no free will, meaning he cannot be all powerful.
-
Frogleg
Much too serious again, I think. Here are some questions in ref the "omnipotence".
Can God know lonliness?
Can God know failure?
Can God know fear?
Can God know surprise? (If he cannot be surprised, can he know a good joke?)
Can God know hunger?
Can God know desperation, satisfaction, dissatisfaction, betrayal, insecurity, accomplishment?
Then how can he possibly know what the f*ck is going on in our hearts?