You are living in the fantasy world of the Watchtower, brother. But even the Watchtower has enough brains to realize what a huge threat the internet has been to their little cult. They are actively sueing apostate sites and are on a huge anti-internet campaign both in their literature and in public conventions warning the droids to avoid the internet. Baptisms are DOWN DOWN DOWN and frankly, it makes no difference if this is directly attributable to the internet or not, the WTS is rotting from the inside out: the young are leaving, the old are dying and Millions once living are now DEAD.
How the Internet Means 'The End' for Apostates and Opposers of the Society
by slimboyfat 89 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
Hellrider
In the 1970/80s there were major challenges to the Watchtower’s theology (great crowd in heaven) and chronology (1914) in Norway, Alberta Canada, Dublin Ireland and in the NewYork Bethel itself: but the damage caused by those involved in the dissent was limited because knowledge was dispersed merely through personal contact and minimal use of obscure publications
?? I never heard about that. What was the argument about? I was just a kid in the 70s, but thru the 80s, I was a good JW-boy. What was the disagreement about?
I disagree with your argument, though. Perhaps potential "apostates" don`t discuss these things as much as before, with their fellow JWs, but on the other hand, any curious, searching, still thinking, still not completely brainwashed, JW, now has all the information needed, out there on the internet. At the tip of the fingertips lays the keys to freedom. Anyone in doubt now has access to information they could previously only dream about.
-
tetrapod.sapien
i disagree totally.
the WTS is a controled hierarchical organization.
the internet is a flattened semantic playing field of personal empowerment.
the WTS will not win out against it unless the power goes out.
regards,
TS
-
FlyingHighNow
I think that before the internet, most of us had NO access to "apostate literature". We were told, "If it comes to your house in the mail, THROW IT AWAY IMMEDIATELY!!! DO NOT READ A WORD OF IT!!!" Well, I never received apostate literature. I always knew I would read it if it was mailed to me. I just never was given any.
There was a number listed in my local phone book for Jehovah's Witnesses. When you called it, you would get a recording made by an "apostate". Or so it was rumored. I never found the number or called it.
In 1999 we bought our first PC and got AOL. One of the first things I did was type Jehovah's Witnesses into the search engine, hoping to find official info on the jws. I got a list of links including their official website. I also found a page with info on Ray Franz and his wife and their ordeal and some other witnesses who had been treated similarly. I couldn't help but read. In 2001, I decided to go back and investigate more deeply. I looked at JWD then, too. I ended up finding an ex elder to communicate with from the exbethelite guest book on one site. I also ordered Crisis Of Conscience and read it.
The internet is what set me free, emotionally and spiritually from the WTBTS.
-
Leolaia
One flaw in your argument is the assumption that a necessary condition for success of WTBTS dissidents is an organized defection at the local level. One could say that prior schismatic events were of limited regional significance while now the threat of the internet reaches into every modern congregation throughout the world. The non-local character of the online community is far less important than the local distribution of information through the internet. An "apostate" on the internet reaches a far greater number of people than a single "apostate" at the local congregational level. It is also easier for an ordinary congregation member to have access to this information without detection than before the internet (such that possessing books, talking to known apostates in person, attending dissident meetings would themselves be disfellowshipping offenses, while viewing a webpage is more easily in the private than public sphere). The lack of organization is also a strength rather than a disadvantage. It is a little similar to P2P activity to the music/film industry. It is harder for the RIAA to shut down decentralized file-sharing networks than a single centralized server like Napster.
-
Hellrider
Ha ha, brilliant Kid-A. Yeah, they warn the droids, I`ve heard. Oh dear, I had no idea baptisms had been cut in half since 1996. The weapon to combat mindless, braindead cults, is information! Hence, the internet. No wonder the WTS are scared shitless.
Millions once living are now DEAD.
ROFL
-
FlyingHighNow
I was thinking, gosh, I've never met another apostate face to face. I have talked to a few on the phone.
Millions once living are now DEAD.
Ohhhh, great slogan. I love it!
-
Lady Lee
My opinion is that you have this whole thing backwards.
The received wisdom is that the Internet has dramatically damaged the ability of the Watchtower Society to gain and retain followers. There was a very eloquent article to that effect written some time ago by a commentator who attempted to buttress his argument with reference to the postmodern condition and the breakdown of metanarratives in today’s secular society, nay, even the come-back for Enlightenment notions of “truth”.
Don't know how dramatic the effect has been but it has been important.
In the 1970/80s there were major challenges to the Watchtower’s theology (great crowd in heaven) and chronology (1914) in Norway, Alberta Canada, Dublin Ireland and in the NewYork Bethel itself: but the damage caused by those involved in the dissent was limited because knowledge was dispersed merely through personal contact and minimal use of obscure publications that seldom met the eyes of Witnesses innocent of the Watchtower’s doctrinal and chronological vacillations in any case.
Agreed Contact with other s who had doubts was limited
During the 1990s this all changed, and now most Witnesses have access to all the information involved in those earlier disputes, plus many more recent “scandals”, at the click of a button in the privacy of their own homes. Surely this must open the floodgates of mass exodus? Wrong! Let me explain why:
Well I believe it isn't wrong.
The Internet has in truth proved a very mixed blessing for apostates indeed; in fact I will argue that it has proved a positive disadvantage in the furtherance of their cause. Here are some of the main reasons for this:
OK
In the pre-Internet age apostates would engage much more with their ‘brothers’ in the faith about the doubts they were having and dissention spread more productively.
I doubt it. My uncle had doubts. He is a very straight shooter and tells people what he tinks about almost anything. But we never heard one word from him about his doubts. He did speak to the elders because he was DFed. And still he didn't speak about his thoughts. One person. Yeah just one. But the rules about talking about doubts were just as strong then as they are now.
This was because defectors simply did not have the support networks available to them that they can now find on forums such as this: they were forced to work away at their issues with fellow Witnesses, and were often far more effective in convincing others in their congregations to join them as a result.
This may have happened in a few areas of the planet but it certainly wasn't widespread.
That is why major regional defections (such as in Alberta and Norway mentioned above) happened in the pre-Internet age and are not likely to be repeated. Whereas pre-Internet apostates would extract themselves from the community with much struggle and bloodletting, a key buzzword for apostates in the Internet age is the “fade”.
Key bussword??? You're talking about a handful of people amongst millions. I think their impact was a lot less than you suppose. That is not to say it is not imporant. What those early dissedents did was a first major step in the ex-JW community.
Apostates now simply slip away from congregations without dragging others with them because they have another option than going through all the trouble: they simply immerse themselves in the online apostate community instead. The Internet is truly a blessing for the Society in this respect: apostates are causing less trouble in local congregations than they once did.
I don't know. Try reading this board and see how much people have done to help their loved ones get out. Maybe we are causing less problems face-to-face but don't make the mistake of confusing the impact we are having.But surely even if apostates are less vocal locally, this is more than made up for by the fact that most Witnesses worldwide now can access apostate literature (sometimes even accidentally) on their home computers.
The media has had so many articles about the JWs from our side of it. TV shows, books movies, radio. Face to face might be less but with the help of the media we are able to reach a lot more people and as a result a lot more people are hearing and learning.
Don’t the numbers of those here on this forum who learned the “truth about the troof” in that way testify to the danger the Internet poses for the Society? Not really.
Most Witnesses are too busy to look up apostate sites; many who do come upon them casually make fun of them and, most importantly, those Witnesses who are very active online have been effective in recent years at creating protected online communities. They have learned from the mistakes of the early days of greatcrowd.com and such like. Apostates often pride themselves in their exploits of infiltration into such “moderated” Witness groups. But the truth is that even the most active online apostate aggressors have only a limited grasp of the scope of the online Witness community. They are only biting at the ankles on the periphery.
Ok they have time for on'line JW sites but they don't have time to accidently find exJW sites. Which is it? Yes there are protected JW sites. Many have been forced to close. And as they close the active JW goes hunting again for another communtiy.
There are no great apostate conventions anymore. In Britain there used to be great ex-Witness conventions: now all but disappeared: thanks to the Internet. Penton Stafford, Bergman, Johnson, Franz and others simply message each other on Channel C rather than meet up for grand discussions. The “Apostafest” of lesser apostates is the poor relative in the Internet age of the great ex-Witness gatherings in the pre-Internet period. Apostasy is all but dead: in the flicker of a hyperlink.
I keep hearing about these conferences. At least once or twice a year so they do occur. The aposofests are friendly gatherings. Not attempts to provide information. You can't compare them because they aren't the same thing. "Lesser apostates" ???? The period of time to dissect the WTS and its teachings has pretty much been completed. There are new things every now and then but the books have been published. The info is out there. Heck wander over to Amazon.com and see what is available. Who needs face to face (so limited) when you can have abook published and have people all over the world find it and buy it. Way way way better if you ask me. If you look at the numbers on this site - apostasy is running wildly out of control. As I have read the WTS is hemorraging its followers.
The Internet spells the end for effective apostasy and should make the Watchtower Society have one huge sigh of relief.
Reality: The internet gives any JW with doubts the ability to find what they are looking for at the click of their mouse. While doctrinal issues are important and those topics do come up repeatedly I think the greater attenion now is on the personal issues, lack of love, abuse, shunning practices,. control of the WTS over its members etc... If anyone thinks the internet is not having its impact they should set up shop here and watch what happens. Watchtower - yup go ahead and sit back and give your big sigh of relief.
-
Seeker4
Some interesting points, but I'm not sure how valid. I never saw many freethinkers have much influence in a congregation, but I've known dozens upon dozens of people who left due to the Internet - myself included.
Skeptics or WTS critics usually ended up getting disfellowshipped.
What I've seen is a drop off of about 33% in baptisms among the Witnesses since around 1997, and the overall growth rate drop from 5% to under 2%. And I don't think the Net is going to be too deadly on opposers and apostates- just the opposite. And those few large ex-JW assemblies you mention have been replaced with hundreds of Apostafests and meetups.
S4 -
AlmostAtheist
This feels a little like those sort of plausible arguments people can put together to make something ludicrous seem irrefutably true. Some math whizzes can toss together complicated looking equations that absolutely prove that 1 = 2. Until another math whiz gets past all the whiz-bang stuff and shows the flaw in the equation.
Sorry SBF, and I can't imagine what motivated this. But there's no way you'll ever sell this idea.
The internet is so not a threat that the Watchtower is suing Quotes (http://quotes.watchtower.ca) for $100,000. Maybe if you send the Canadian branch a copy of your treatise, they'll back off? (doubt it)
Dave