Hey I got an email too! I gave the guy a few questions and he's working on a reply. It ought to be fun. I'll post it when it comes
-FW
Jwitness roofing service blog overun with JW! Go make a comment! Plantseed
by PaNiCAtTaCk 40 Replies latest jw friends
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sf
Annie, it takes a while for the post to actually 'submit'. You may not even see it for a good 24 hours, yet it SHOULD appear by then. [ edited to say, I stand corrected:Comments for this post have been closed. ]
sKally
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Sunspot
Comments for this post have been closed. ]
Shucks!
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Vinny
I was reading some of the comments posted on this msnbc article again this morning. (It is still posted under "Rising From The Ruin" series of articles about New Orleans).
http://risingfromruin.msnbc.com/stories.html
In fact, I forwarded this exact article to every Witness whose e-mail address I had. Something I rarely did due to being counseled about "forwards and e-mails".
But then, I started reading the comments below the article. (Bad idea). In the beginning most were PRO-JW, from JW's. Then the other kind started rolling in. Then I sent in a comment (though it never posted due to being very similar to the other JW comments sending peoplke to the "Official JW Site".
"Anyone who chooses not to live up to these standards cannot be allowed to remain in the congregation for the sake of those who are trying to live up to them. However the removal is not permanent. If the person decides to get their life back in line with Jehovah God’s standards they are welcomed back into the congregation."
i am currently being shunned completely by my jehovah's witness family (my mom ignored my email telling her that i just got engaged). i was not disfellowshipped from the congregation. i have not committed any disfellowshipping offense, and yet i'm shunned by all of my family and friends because i disagree with there interpretation of the bible. especially regarding their policy on blood transfusions. please tell me how someone in my situation can "get [his] life back in line with Jehovah God's standards." i have not accepted a blood transfusion (or otherwise "stepped out of line"), i simply disagree that the bible forbids them.
in this way, i wholeheartedly agree that they stifle personal morality and personal responsibility.my personal moral code does not forbid the taking of a blood transfusion, yet to 'get my life back in line' and share my coming marriage with my family, i have to convince myself that it does.
I have no problem with my family believing what they wish, i just beg for that same level of respect."
Michael M (Sent Nov 2, 2005 3:08:33 PM)
We are concerned when we see people point to examples such as this and say "see what they do? they must be right, they have LOVE!" We know the reality. Individuals may have love, but the reality is they have been misled by their religious leaders into believing things that harm their families and their lives.
I have been a JW all of my life. My husband has too. We both left the organization 3 years ago due to matters of conscience when we realized we had been lied to about a number of doctrinal issues, when we learned that the JWs were secretly associated with the UN, even while accusing other religions of fornicating with a "harlot" for their association with the UN.
We learned many details about blood transfusions, organ transplants, vaccinations, and the Society's ever-changing stance on them over the years. We saw friends disfellowshipped because of questioning doctrine, NOT for "immorality." We saw men in the congregation who raped their children repeatedly, get a handslap simply because they "repented." We also saw their children, reeling from years of rape and abuse, being told to "pray more and study harder," by untrained and unqualified "clergy," as a method for recovery from abuse.
We would attend congregation picnics and gatherings, and see these same child-rapists accepted with open arms into the community... parents even going so far as to NOT protect their children. (Can you imagine my horror at seeing a known and convicted pedophile holding a 4 y.o. girl on his lap, and escorting her alone to the restroom, in the presence of many members, and no one thinking twice about it because the congregation elders had given him his "privileges" back... thus showing he was to be trusted, I guess.) Yet the raped children of these sick, yet active JWs, are ostracized when they can't deal with the criminal acts perpetrated on them, and act out.
We left because no matter what we did, or how hard we tried, we were always behind the 8-ball. Being told "do more, do more," it was never enough.
We left because we saw young adults essentially blackmailed into baptism by their parents and elders of the congregation by shaming them into it. Then when they couldn't live up to the requirements, they were thrown out with no sympathy.
Neither I, nor my husband are disfellowshipped or disassociated. We choose not to comply with the ridiculous rule that we must state our intentions. To do so would mean that our families would be forced to reduce our contact with them to all but the most basic and necessary family communications--simply because we do not agree with their religious beliefs.
When I read an article like this, what comes to mind for me is not that the act is good, (which it is,) it's that I sincerely hope that people are not misled by the outward appearance of charity and "love" into believing that involvement with the JWs would be good for them. It's not. This is a high-control, manipulative, deceptive and family-wrecking group. The member who leaves for matters of conscience is indeed shunned, just as though they committed some "immoral" act. The shunning is from the JWs directed outward. It is the JW who is destroying the family bonds, no matter how much they want you to believe the responsibility lies with the non-believer.
It is a testament to just how indoctrinated the average JW is, that they so adamantly defend their "truth" and "spirit-direction," without any knowledge of their Organization, beyond what has been spoon-fed to them in their endless stream of "bible-study aids." It is a testament that they believe their lives are improved by belonging to such an insular and judgmental apocalyptic organization. They are "encouraged" not to examine outside information regarding their sect, and this is why they are dangerous. It's easy to be utterly convinced of your own "rightness" and "divine approval," when you only have one side of the story.
It's easy to see "love" when you watch twenty volunteers on a roof. What do you think when you see an Elder turn his back on a mother who greets him, simply because the mother has decided that she doesn't want her child exposed to the "approved associate" pedophile at the Kingdom Hall, and has warned the other mothers? Is this love? Do you want your children at the Kingdom Hall? BTW, there were 3 actively associating child molestors in my hometown congregation when I moved out.
It is out of concern for people who might be snared by this destructive organization, that I and others post comments sharing the "rest of the story."
Stacey, OR (Sent Nov 2, 2005 2:39:12 PM)
Cults Are High Control Groups. So One Has To Ask,”Is The Jehovah Witness Religion A High Control Group?”
Here Is The Main Evidence On It. I Write It All The Time And It Gets Ignored All The Time. So Here It Goes Again.
Once The Watchtower Bible And Tract Society™ Made A Mandate That Their Members Could Not Receive Vaccinations. If A Member Said I Do Not Agree And Received Vaccinations OR Gave Their Young Children Vaccinations They Would Be Disfellowshipped And Loose Their Entire Family.
Once Disfellowshipped Not Even Your Family Can So Much As Take A Meal With You If You Go Against The Watchtower™.
SOOOOOOooo, Jehovah’s Witnesses Didn’t Take Vaccinations And Some Died. Even CHILDREN Died.
Then One Day The Watchtower Society Says They Have New Light™ And So Now Jehovah’s’ People May In Good Conscience Take Vaccinations.
So, Then, The People AND Children Who Died Not Taking Vaccinations….Who Did They Die For? Did They Die For Jehovah? Or For The Watchtower Bible And Tract Corporation™? Did The Bible Say Not To Take Vaccinations? Or Was It Just A Dogmatic Mandate?
Although There Were Other Health Mandates I Will Skip Them And Go To Another Biggie. Organ Transplants.
At One Time The Watchtower Society™ Said No Organ Transplants For Their Members.
To Receive Life Saving Organ Transplants Was Considered Cannibalism By The Slave Class™.
If A Jehovah’s Witness Received An Organ Transplant Or Allowed Their CHILD To Receive A Life Saving Organ Transplant They Were Disfellowshipped. Shunned. Loosing All Family,Friends,And A Voice In The Congregation.
If A Jehovah’s Witness Questioned The Dogmatic Doctrine Of No Organ Transplants They Were Accused Of “Running Ahead Of Jehovah’s Organization”. Apostasy!
Then New Light™ Comes From The Slave Class.
Jehovah’s People Can Now Receive Organ Transplants.
Many Jehovah’s Witnesses Died Including CHILDREN.
Did The Bible Say Not To Receive Life Saving Organ Transplants? Or Was It Just A Dogmatic Mandate?
Now I Will Go To Another Biggie, Blood.
Not Whole Blood Just Fractions. Jehovah’s Witnesses Latest Medical Mandate Is No Blood.
Science Develops New Treatment For Hemophiliacs Using Blood Fractions.
Many Jehovah’s Witnesses Hemophiliacs And Parents Of Children Who Are Hemophiliacs Whose Doctors Have Told Them About This New Treatment Call Bethel.
The Watchtower Society™ Says No Blood Fractions.
Even Just A Part Of The Blood Is Still Blood. It Must Be Poured Out Onto The Ground.
Many Die. Many CHILDREN Die.
One Day The Slave Class™ Says They Have New Light™.
Jehovah’s Witnesses May Now Receive Blood Fractions.
Did The Bible Say Not To Receive Life Saving Blood Fractions? To Not Allow Your Children To Receive Life Saving Blood Fractions? Did These Men, Women, And CHILDREN, Die For Jehovah? Or Did They Die For The Watchtower™?
What Would Have Happened In Any Of These Medical Mandated Cases Had The Individual Jehovah’s Witness Said,” I Am Sorry But, I Must Save My Life That IS A Gift From God. I Believe The Watchtower Bible And Tract Society™ Is Wrong On This Point.”
The Consequence For Disobedience To The Watchtower Even For Nobel Causes Is Disfellowshipment.
The Loss Of Your World As You Know It. The Loss Of Your Family, Friends, And Support At The Kingdom Hall AND You Feel Are Made To Feel The Loss Of Your GOD.
You Feel And Are Made To Feel As If You Are Worse Then Dead.
Now Even Parents Allowed Their Children To Die (Be Killed) By Dogmatic Medical Mandate.
So Is This A High Control Group? You Answer This For Yourself.
Use YOUR God Given Conscience. It Is Yours. It Is A Gift. Nothing God Gives Is Broken No Matter What You Have Been Taught. You Do Not Need Any Man To Tell You What To Do On Any Righteous Matter.God Is Taking Care Of You.Listen To The Still Small Voice Of Our Heavenly Father’s Holy Spirit.
I Did Not Touch The Subject Of Whole Blood This Time,Because You Must Also Answer This For Yourself. But Look At The Record Of The Watchtower Bible And Tract Society™. They Have Been Deadly Wrong Too Many Times.
Do You Wish To Take The Blue Pill Or The Red?
http://www.whysanity.net/monos/matrix3.html
Many Blessings,
Kitty Pride
Kitty Pryde Chicagoland Area (Sent Nov 3, 2005 7:03:30 AM) -
dawg
Come on Bravehearts... don't you see what's happeing? THey're not even supposed to be talking to us on the net or otherwise... They know they're being duped. How do you feel when someone points out your faults? <My first reactionis to call them a son of a bitch... but after awhile it dawns on me they're right. THey're sending you e-mail? What an opportunity! Let's organize, organize, organize to do our ministry! Share e-mails, defete these bastards! Do you really want to go to your graves knowing you did'nt capialtize on this opportunity; this followed up with the thousands of sex abuse cases that are sure to follow the recent settlements, the fact that they will soon have to change the 1914 date altogether soon... these guys are going down, we've stung them with a right to the nose now let's work together and kill them with the jaw shot! Don't you guys get what I'm saying here man? Come on!
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Odrade
Just so you know, Vinny, "Stacey" is the 'whiny laughable silly waste of time boring embarrassment atheist' otherwise known as "Odrade." So glad to see you can occasionally be reasonable.
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Vinny
Guess I'm indebted to Odrade now. She did help me out. Got to give credit where credit is deserved.
: )
Your MSNBC post was very compelling to read Odrade. It was reasonable and you brought out very specific issues. Those issues, when examined truthfully (as I was compelled to do), did the WT Society IN. It just amazes me how I had never even heard of those things before.
vinny -
Odrade
I suppose the congregation considers us inactive. My husband's family does. My family is kind of weird, they are really hardline, and believe if a person is completely inactive for a long period of time, they are no longer "witnessing," thus no longer a "witness." After having been out of the organization for this length of time, they treat us just like the rest of their worldly family and will socialize with us, speak with us regularly, go out to dinner, etc. Sometimes they try to "witness" to us as if we have never heard any of their doctrine.
We're on the same page, he just doesn't talk about it much. I talk and write about it regularly in hopes somebody will stop and think for a minute. Sometimes they do.
I don't think there's anything wrong with bitterness. It's a normal step in the progression of emotions that occur with loss. It's only unhealthy if you get stuck there. If she has a grandchild she doesn't get to see... well that would make me quite bitter too.
I hope in time her son does wake up. The Watchtower is no place to raise a kid.
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Vinny
Thanks for the details Odrade. Two more questionz; do you live in the same area as when you were both active JW's? And Is either of your family in the same area that you live in today?
What makes it more difficult for us is that we live on an ISLAND. It is practically a rarity to "go out", whether shopping, restaurants, movies etc and NOT SEE a JW at some point and time. I gave many public talks in each of the eight congregations on this island. We participated in remodeling, quick builds, weddings, social gatherings and whatever else JW's do together. Over the past year I have become accustomed to this new fact of life PROOF that this is a controlling religious institution. I am convinced that running into these folks phases THEM more than I nowadays since I have grown used to it.
My stepson, her son, lives only five minutes up the road. They have a one and a half year old as well. Her side of the family pretends to be hardcore too. Her mother claims to be of the 144,000. Though none of us elders believed that was even possible. It was a running joke among us for years. Every memorial the entire family would color coordinate according to how this sister chose. She would then partake (while we brothers would carefully do the eye rolling thing), and then everybody would take the sister out to a special dinner.
It was embarrassing to watch actually. Then during the week, this entire family--including ms. "Special Anointed", would come to every single meeting late. Or not show up at all. They would cancel talk after talk. It got to the point where I had backup talks planned just by looking at the schedule and seeing their names.
Anyway, her family (our son's wife) is the source behind our them shunning us both. I have no problems with some sort of change in relationship since I did DA. But my wife has just faded away, nothing more, solely to keep that relationship intact. Yet he has told her directly that he wants nothing to do with either of us unless we go back to the meetings. What makes all of this such a joke, is that his wife was just fired from her job for stealing $2800. He loads up on the cold ones every single night. THey both hang out with other disfellowshipped friends. His myspace page says "life is a beer, drink it up". They miss half the meetings. etc etc..
Amazing stuff going on.
I'll post more later. I have some comments to post about the other son that IS OUT, tomorrow. But headed out to town now.
Aloha,
vinny -
Odrade
We are not only in the same house as when we were still active, but we are only a couple miles from the Kingdom Hall and one of the closest territories for our former congregation. Both sets of parents, as well as my brother, all live within a couple of miles from our home. My family is very well-known and well-respected among the JWs in the area, as is my husband's. His uncle is "anointed," and I'll tell you NOBODY questions that he's the "real deal." Growing up, my family was highly visible, with many assembly and convention parts. My brother had 500 people at his wedding and it was not a teenage party, these were all JWs in good standing, adults, etc. We invited about 60, and ended up with around 200 at our KH wedding.
I don't know what island you're on, but if you're in either Kihei or Kona, it's very likely you've met my parents or my brother.
We have almost no contact with any former JW "friends," although occasionally my mother will send one of her Witness friends to me for massage therapy. They are well aware that I am not a JW, but I doubt they know any of the rest of the story because they always treat me with respect and never try to preach to me. I wouldn't tolerate it if they did.
But we are on the outskirts of a metropolitan area, with over 2 million residents, so we rarely see JWs, except at a distance. Twice now, they have knocked on our door with the magazines, but they don't know me, AFAIK.
Neither my nor my husband's family are hypocrites. They are the "good" JWs, who do not lie, cheat, steal, lie, protect molestors, lie, lie and lie. (spam spam spam and spam.) They are true believers, who are giving the good talks, conducting the WT study, having "progressive" bible studies, and to give them credit, they are pretty good christians, in spite of their religious affiliation. If I expressed apostate views however, my own mother would pull the trigger. Of this I have no doubt. Fortunately, when we decided to leave the JWs, we landed here and took the advice of posters more experienced than we were, on how to pull off a successful fade. So far so good.
We had dinner at my folks' house last Friday. It was pleasant and fairly relaxed. Yeah, there is the "elephant in the room" - their religious views, a topic we don't discuss but are always aware that it is there. We get along okay in spite of that.
Personally, I think it is often harder to come to an "understanding" with a hypocrite than with a faithful "true believer." The hypocrite is always a moving target. Your wife's daughter-in-law does not sound like someone who is inclined to make much sense. But, as you say, it is a small community- island life- so she's not going to be able to keep the grandson away forever.