I have mostly addressed 1914 problems but she has ignored everything I sent. I have to go to work help me send her something. Our conversation ignited from a post on the JW roofing blog.
You still didn't answer my question of who do we go away to? You say your decision to leave Jehovah's witnesses left you on your own. How can you obey the admonition not to forsake the gathering together with fellowbelievers?
What do you say to the people who doubted the WT literature that said certain kings lived in Bible times but the research books all said they could not have lived because of the existing worldly evidence? Now, 50 years later the worldly scholars have found the efidence that the WT literature didn't need because they simply believed the Bible.
God needs a large organization to handle the mammoth warning work that is prophesied to be done earthwide. The Mormons have a giant organization but they are doing no warning work.
Comparing the Book of Mormon to the Watchtower is like comparing the dust bag from your vacuum cleaner to a banquet of fresh food. I have read it and discussed it with my Mormon cousins who spend every Saturday night getting baptized for dead people.
There is no place to go. And there is plenty to critisize. But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah with the only people on earth who recognize his soverignty.
Thanks for your reply.
Help me respond to this lady im tired of messing with her. U write I send
by PaNiCAtTaCk 20 Replies latest jw friends
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PaNiCAtTaCk
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carla
The question is not where else can we go, it is to whom, the answer was Jesus, you must come to Jesus.
Ah, yes the ever famous, gather together, the Bible also says you are to fellowship with Jesus. Now how can you fellowship with someone you are not even ALLOWED to talk to? If she went to the hall but was not allowed to talk to anybody would she still consider it fellowshipping?
God needs a large org?! Does she really believe God 'needs' any of us humans? As if He cannot accomplish anything without jw's? Don't you think creation itself would prove He certainly doesn't 'need' us to 'help' Him with anything. Jesus also said we didn't need any man to teach us as that would be the job of the Holy Spirit.
Fresh food? There again you have the jw's putting themselves in the seat of Moses or even God Himself. I say this because they have changed and added to the word of God so many times. And all the flip flops of the org. God doesn't change, men do.
Why does the wt warn against reading the Bible alone without jw literature? It warns that you will fall into darkness and start believing the same as christendom does. Why do you suppose that is? Does that mean a jw standed on a desert island with only a bible (hopefully not the NWT) would become a Christian?
I won't bother looking up any scripts, it just turns into a volleyball of scripts!
I will leave it to the others to answer more eloquently. They know who they are, help Panic out here.
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Odrade
To point #1: an illustration. If a woman is in an abusive relationship, should she stay with her abuser just because she has no other man to go to when she leaves?
In addition, where is the definition of "not forsaking the gathering..." Are we to believe that the WT defines exactly how often and with whom we should gather? Why should we accept this? Are we just to assume the WT has a lock on spiritual and encouraging "gathering?" If so, again, why?
To point #2: What proof do you have of this secular research that confirms the bible chronology? Have you checked the sources? What about the secular research that disproves bible chronology? Do you even know about it? Do you know about the "evidence" of the non-JW scholars because you have read their research, or because you were told the bits and pieces that the WT told you about? We already know how they misrepresent secular research... for proof, examine the secular quotes used in the Creation book.
To point #3: This is a fallacy propagated by the WT that they are the only ones doing a "warning work." There are many apocalyptic christian sects. Many of them proselytize. Most of them do so informally and spontaneously, just like Jesus did. JWs don't have a lock on either "warning" or preaching.
To point #4: Why? because it was written later? By that reasoning, the Bible is a dustbag compared to the Upanishads, Tao-Te-Ching and the Veda. They are remarkable holy books written before or concurrently with the bible. Age, and your belief in it, does not make it true. -
avishai
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/55372/1.ashx
More 607/586 stuff for her.
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theinfamousone
heres what you can say...
dear moron,
i realize that showing ou what is really the truth is pointless. like the rest of your peers, you do not want to listen, you would rather look down upon those who are truly free and enjoying life. I also see that you are among the group that believes that since the Watchtower says something, it is true. Unfortunately you are not allowed to read anything that contradicts what your earthly organization says, so you are doomed to believe all that you are told. I am sure you are one of those people who pities me because i have been taken away from the "light". If you call being blinded to the real world, then you are the one who is not seeing the light.
so continue to read your watchtower. continue to think that it is giving you a university education, and continue to think that i am doomed to death. but just remember this, i would rather die, than live everlastingly, which i must say will not happen, worshipping a god who allows childrento die of hunger, people to suffer the agonies of cancer, ebola and aids, and allows good people to be killed, hurt and tortured because he made a bet with the devil...
thanks for your time, and i know you have probably already deleted this message, or are writing one to me, without reading what i had to say. at least i had the decency to read your message before spewing the same circular arguments and moronic gibberish that you hear in the watchtower...
BYE MORON!
the infamous one
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hooberus
To where shall I go?
This is a question that many JWs seem to have when they are contemplating leaving the WT Society. The Society's answer is that there is nowhere else to go. What is a doubting JW to do?
Though I have never been a JW, I do have some thoughts.
I believe that it is possible for a person to have faith and a personal relationship with God apart from the WT organization. Many people had a relationship with God long before Charles Russell quit his clothing business and started printing his religious journal. The lamb's book of life is what counts, not being on a certain 19th century magazine subscription list.
The phrase "To where shall I go" is not in the Bible: The phrase "to whom shall we go" is. It is not talking leaving a "religious organization" but a person, Jesus Christ.
"Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. John 6:68-69Jesus is the way the truth and the life, not an "organization" even one calling itself "Jehovah's Organization"
"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6
Just because an organization uses the name Jehovah and claims to represent him does not make it so (many organizations besides the WT also use the name Jehovah and many others claim to be "God's Organization").
Many because the Watchtower has hurt them reject God the same time they reject the Society. The Watchtower has for many made faith in the Society the same as faith in God and the Bible. Thus, many give up faith in God and the Bible when they loose their faith in the Watchtower Organization.
I hope that many who leave will seek a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ. Then perhaps someday they may be ready for a healthy Christian fellowship -one that exalts Jesus and not a particular "organization."
The Jesus of the scriptures is a far different being than the Jesus of the watchower, he is personally interested in people (I say this because of my experience with him). Those who wish to seek a relationship with God need to re-evaluate who they have been taught Jesus Christ is. The Christ of the scriptures is a far more poweful being than the Christ of the watchtower. seek him.
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." Revelation 3:20
"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." Revelation 22:12-13
"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Revelation 22:20 -
Sunspot
This question was just addressed on Beliefnet posted by a JW. The common belief stems from when Jesus said that when two or more are gathered in MY name, I am there (paraphrasing here) but the FACT IS......he never said WHERE, WHEN or HOW MANY TIMES A WEEK that this was to take place. He didn't even mention that "any chosen people or a cult" would be singled out as his pet religion....oh, I mean the religion that he invisibly came down and gave his ONLY blessing on!
This is just one more in a LONG line of handy utterances on the tips of the parrot's tongues.....to make you feel GUILTY about abandoning the cult. This organization has nothing to DO with Jesus but loves to toss out this stuff when trying to prove what they think their point may be.
Sitting in a KH, assembly hall or a convention site and listening to the same-old same-old, rehashed, warmed over and tainted and often faulty unspiritual food from the Watchtowergod and his boys-in-writing.......has NO bearing on gathering together in Jesus' name. Not even close.
Tell her that.
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MerryMagdalene
who do we go away to?
Simple. The one Simon Peter was addressing in John 6:68, our Lord Jesus Christ. He is the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6)
*Who will instruct us since Christ ascended? The Holy Spirit (John 14:26)
*How? "...saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts [not their secret elders' manuals], and in their minds will I write them [not their Bound Volumes and Kingdom Ministries]..." (Hebrews 10:16)
*"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you;" (Matthew 7:7)How can you obey the admonition not to forsake the gathering together with fellowbelievers?
Just do it. Get together with those around you who confess Christ as the Son of God and their Saviour (1 John 4:15), and encourage one another in love and good works (Hebrews 10:24). For examples of "good works" listed in the NT see: Matthew 5:16-48,
*It doesn't have to be a large group: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." (Matthew 18:20)
*It doesn't have to be in a special meeting place: (Philemon 2)
*But one should avoid false prophets who seem to have special knowledge of his arrival that no one else has, using special signs and wonders as proof, and saying, "Lo, here is Christ, or there..." (Matthew 24:23); or "...in the desert..." or "...in the secret chambers..." (Matthew 24:26), because his coming will not be invisible but will be like lightning flashing across the sky, and all will see him (Matthew 24:27, 30).God needs a large organization to handle the mammoth warning work
Please provide scriptural backing that sharing our faith in Christ and the gospel, or good news, of the Kingdom must be organized by one human group on a large scale. (Note that 1 Corinthians 14:40, about all things being orderly and by arrangement, is set in the context that meeting together should not be a confusion of people speaking all at once but that they should take turns.)
The Mormons have a giant organization but they are doing no warning work.
Comparing the Book of Mormon to the Watchtower is like comparing the dust bag from your vacuum cleaner to a banquet of fresh food[I can't address the Mormon topic, sorry]
the only people on earth who recognize his soverignty
*http://www.eschatology.org/articles/secondcoming/zechariah7.htm
*http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0077.htm
*http://www.gracegems.org/2001-1/Selfish%20Religion.htm
*http://joyceschmedel.home.att.net/Dan08.htm
*http://www.jude3.net/brg03.htm
(References not reviewed, nor endorsed, simply googled "Jehovah's Sovereignty" to see if JWs are indeed the only persons who "recognize" it...apparently they're not.)Hope this helps. It's all I got.
~Merry
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tetrapod.sapien
You still didn't answer my question of who do we go away to? You say your decision to leave Jehovah's witnesses left you on your own. How can you obey the admonition not to forsake the gathering together with fellowbelievers?
there is nothing to obey. the bible is a load of shit as the word of god. even as a work of fiction, it is hard to follow along and really quite boring. please, you're boring me with this talk of the bible.
why are you not out there raping, pillaging and commiting genocide? i thought you were trying to imitate jehovah the sadist?
What do you say to the people who doubted the WT literature that said certain kings lived in Bible times but the research books all said they could not have lived because of the existing worldly evidence? Now, 50 years later the worldly scholars have found the efidence that the WT literature didn't need because they simply believed the Bible.
this is a load of crap. the sad part is that you probably know it. what, are you lying for jehovah now? well finally, imitating your master!
you will have to provide evidence for your extraordinary claim here. until then you talk poo poo ca ca.
and it's "evidence", not "efidence". please, it's one thing to hurt your fellow humans by spreading ignorance from door to door all over the world. but the english language is sacred.God needs a large organization to handle the mammoth warning work that is prophesied to be done earthwide. The Mormons have a giant organization but they are doing no warning work.
who? god who? who's that? there is no evidence for the existence of god. you will have to prove he exists before i take anything you say about him seriously. and i mean scientifically.
the JWs and the mormons: huge exercises in idiocy.
but then i doubt you like the economic explanations, as they are a tad boring, hey?Comparing the Book of Mormon to the Watchtower is like comparing the dust bag from your vacuum cleaner to a banquet of fresh food. I have read it and discussed it with my Mormon cousins who spend every Saturday night getting baptized for dead people.
comparing either to reality is the epitomy of "flapdoodle". if you don't know the definition, look it up.
There is no place to go. And there is plenty to critisize. But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah with the only people on earth who recognize his soverignty.
huh? where the f*ck do you think i am right now? no where? HA HA!! your loss. toto, i don't think we's in kansas no more.
okay, here is the actual translation of what you just said in my JW-BS-o-matic:
There is no place to go that my pea cult-brain can imagine. And there is plenty to critisize because we have spent over a hundred years talking out of our inspired joe hoba blow-holes. But as for me and my household, and Joshua the godly general of genocide, we will serve Jehovah, the god of genocides and old-boy protector of pedophiles, with the only bright and shiny people on earth who recognize his blood-soaked soverignty and are dumb enough to think that he exists in the first place.
oh, and the the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around.
sincerely, your fellow hairless ape,
< signature >
...there, that should do it. LOL.
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Cygnus
tetra's was a bit harsh so let me have a crack at it with a little more tact, hehe
: You still didn't answer my question of who do we go away to? You say your decision to leave Jehovah's witnesses left you on your own. How can you obey the admonition not to forsake the gathering together with fellowbelievers?
There are lots of things to do in this life that are fulfilling, spiritual, and meaningful that have nothing to do with Jehovah, the Bible, or the Watchtower. (List things you have interest in and are as described.)Now I have a question for you: If you look at the New World Translation, verses 19 through 25 of Hebrews ch. 10 constitute one paragraph. One entire contextual thought. Do you have " boldness for the way of entry into the holy place" as the scriptural admonition indicates? If you say that applies to the anointed, then I answer it applies to the anointed JEWISH Christians to whom the letter was written 1900 +/- years ago. I am not Jewish, I am not of the anointed, and I don't live 1900 years ago. And I don't think the author of the letter was telling the Jews to go to the Kingdom Hall.
: What do you say to the people who doubted the WT literature that said certain kings lived in Bible times but the research books all said they could not have lived because of the existing worldly evidence? Now, 50 years later the worldly scholars have found the efidence that the WT literature didn't need because they simply believed the Bible.
Who? David? There might have been a David. Belshazzar? I agree there was one. But the beauty of scholarship is that it promotes accuracy and truth. That evidence is found that corroborates sections of the Bible doesn't justify all of its stories. Did a man really spend 3 days inside a great white shark? Did a man really lose his Superman-like strength because of a haircut? Did a man really come back from the dead and to prove it had people stick their hands into his hole-riddled corpse?
: God needs a large organization to handle the mammoth warning work that is prophesied to be done earthwide. The Mormons have a giant organization but they are doing no warning work.
Sure the Mormons do. They believe in an imminent Second Coming and they share their faith with others. Evangelical protestantism has been around for a long time and exerts much more of an influence and attracts more people than JWs do. Haven't you ever heard of a thing called The Rapture that many millions of Americans believe could happen at any time, ushering in a 7-year Great Tribulation? Havn't you ever been to a Borders or any large bookstore and visited the Religion section and find dozens of books about the Second Coming?There is also a Christian belief system called Preterism, which adheres to Colossians 1:23, that the good news had been preached to all creation and the return, or parousia, of Jesus did occur in the first century, as expected by nearly every New Testament writer. Maybe that has some credence, don't you think? The Watchtower already does apply nearly all of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 to 66-70 CE.
Really, how is it that JWs know for certain what warning work they are preaching, as it has changed dramatically over the years - but the Bible hasn't, has it? Charles Russell taught that Matthew 24:1-14 applied to the entire Christian age. Then that was "adjusted" to have begun in 1914. The original title of the magazine was "Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of Christ's Presence" because it was taught that Christ was present since 1874. That teaching has been discarded. Russell also taught that the ransom would benefit and cover ALL persons, including Adam and Eve. We don't teach that about the ransom any longer. We once taught that the great tribulation began in 1914; now we don't. We once taught that we were doing a separating work, determining sheep from goats. Now that is considered a future event. Same with the celestial activity. It was taught that persons alive and old enough to be aware that the Kingdom was established in 1914 and that the League of Nations was a counterfeit backed by the "man of lawlessness," the clergy, would see Armageddon. Then it was "adjusted" so that such people would merely have to have been born. Then finally "adjusted" so that the definition of "generation" completely changed. I can document all of these changes for you. What else might change, as we are almost in the year 2006 with 2014 approaching? Have you considered that the established Kingdom with Jesus as King has been stagnant for almost a whole century now, and that perhaps not just the chronology but the entire belief is seriously flawed?
The Watchtower teaches that the resurrection of the "sleeping saints," or the anointed who had already died, began in the spring of 1918. That is based on the belief that the time sequence of Jesus' ministry of 3 1/2 years paralleled autumn of 1914 to the spring of 1918. But in 1918 the Watchtower was teaching that this resurrection began in 1878. Wouldn't that make them guilty of teaching that the resurrection had occurred when it hadn't? Isn't that what 2 Timothy 2:17-18 calls a 'deviation from the truth'? Here, I'll quote it: Hy·me·nae´us and Phi·le´tus are of that number. These very [men] have deviated from the truth, saying that the resurrection has already occurred; and they are subverting the faith of some. That's exactly what the organization was doing, if we are correct about the adjusted dating. But what if the dating is still wrong? In view of 2 Timothy it sounds very serious. Can you teach someone, using just the Bible, that the resurrection occurred in the spring of 1918? Do you see why I have serious reservations about some things now?
: Comparing the Book of Mormon to the Watchtower is like comparing the dust bag from your vacuum cleaner to a banquet of fresh food. I have read it and discussed it with my Mormon cousins who spend every Saturday night getting baptized for dead people.
Your denigration of their faith really is uncalled for. The Bible does speak of baptism of the dead; their interpretation and application may or may not be correct, but as I discussed above, ours hasn't been on target as regards the end of the system of things, or the resurrection. Where in the Bible does it say the resurrection began in 1918, or that the heavenly calling ended in 1935? Do you realize there are men on the Governing Body that were born after 1935? I agree that the Book of Mormon is not of God so I don't advocate it to my neighbors. Do you see why I also have serious reservations that some Watchtower teachings are not of God either?
: There is no place to go. And there is plenty to critisize. But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah with the only people on earth who recognize his soverignty.I believe that is a very arrogant statement, and I'm sorry you are so close-minded that you fail to recognize the hundreds of millions who also put faith in Jehovah and his Son Jesus as the ultimate judges and rulers. Many simply do so quietly. What is wrong with that? The Bible says to be humble, does it not? It says that SOME are to be teachers, and others other things, but there is one hope, doesn't it? Why do JWs insist that all be teachers and that there are two Christian hopes?
Then I would conclude with whatever personal assurances and whatnot you'd say, depending on your relationship to this person.
