Hardened Heart

I-CH-TH-U-S

What does it mean when God "Hardened Pharoah's Heart"? i know part of this is to teach the egyptians that he has control over them and stuff (ie using plagues that were representatives of their gods)

i also think about it and say to myself that if he is doing that to the egyptians he is "torturing" them, i once had a jw tell me that God doesnt torture people. now the God i know of tells people like joshua to go through a city and kill all men, woman, children and ET (i think thats in one of the translations i read...kidding) but u get the point right, im just wondering peoples thoughts on it.

thanks

funkyderek

What does it mean when God "Hardened Pharoah's Heart"? i know part of this is to teach the egyptians that he has control over them and stuff (ie using plagues that were representatives of their gods)

It apparently means that God took away Pharaoh's free will, just so he wouldn't let the Israelites go and God could bring more plagues to make him let the Israelites go. Or does anyone have a better explanation?

Narkissos

I think you're quite right. Having people "sin" and then punish them for it can be construed as a very elaborate, sadistic form of torture. And it is a very common pattern in the OT (think of David's census in 2 Samuel 24, for instance). The idea of the Potter-God as developed by Paul in Romans 9--11 through the reading of such texts (especially about Pharaoh) only escapes the monstruous by its potentially universalistic conclusion (11:32): the "hardening of hearts" is just a dialectical moment as it were. Of course this only make sense in the perspective of an eternal salvation which is not that of the OT texts.

Part of the problem, I guess, is related to the shift from the polytheistic to the monotheist perspective. Many stories were built in the former: Yhwh had to make people "sin" for he had no absolute authority to punish. The trick was putting people in a situation where an almost impersonal and automatic "Wrath" would befall them. In the new monotheistic paradigm where Yhwh was the punisher, being the tempter as well made him a terrible pervert. At that point "Satan" needed to be invented (cf. 1 Chronicles 21).

A Paduan

Withdrew His influence

Have you ever dealt with someone who was very, very unjust, and your influence of goodwill could only ever elicit, at best, an inadequate bit of attrition, and no contrition - and realising that you have given the benefit of the doubt, in an extended time, you withdraw your support - realising that you cannot condone or pretend that their actions are in anyway ok -

and it hardens their heart

gumby

Withdrew His influence

So.....god at one time influenced Pharoah to do good......and now he's taking away his spirit from Pharaoh and Pharaoh does bad? So you believe god was WITH Pharaoh.....then left him?

Gumby

AlmostAtheist

The Biblical God is really into killing innocents to get the attention of the guilty or other third parties.

Pharoah - God killed the first born of Arty Oblemowicz, the stone cutter that lived on 4th and Maple. Killed off most of his brother-in-law's cattle, too. Arty's a decent guy and never really thought the Jews should be used as slaves. While he personally thought it wasn't right, there wasn't anything he could personally do about it. He wondered why the god of the Jews decided to kill his son to make a point that he already agreed with.

Job - God set things in motion that led to the death of Job's 10 children. One of the boys, Thomas, was married. His wife was not killed, but she became estranged from the family when she refused to share in the joy of Job recovering from his boils and getting his money back.

David - To really drive home how pissed off God was over David's misdeeds, he killed David's baby. Bathsheba accepted the punishment -- what choice did she have? -- but she secretly hated Jehovah for using her precious son as a pawn in his scale-balancing game.

Stubby the Tailor - Stubby was retarded, but functional. He was able to support himself with help from his parents and by mending garments. His customers always called him a "tailor" because it made Stubby feel good, but he really could just mend. Still, he enjoyed his life. He didn't understand when it started raining fire on his beloved Sodom. He knew it hurt, and he knew he didn't like it. He wished it would stop.

(I guess the point's made. Yeah, BibleGod's a real sweetheart. [Hope this post doesn't piss him off, he might kill my cousin to get back at me!])

Dave

gumby

Dang Dave.......that was sumthin!

Gumby

A Paduan

It's pretty basic - think of a bully

there was a bully, some bully followers, and there was a nice guy
anyway, the nice guy spends time around the bully
the bully kerbs a little of his bullying because it pleases the nice guy, and the bully wants his aquaintances to think he's really ok - and properly No.1
but the nice guy cannot condone the bully's bullying, or that the bully should really be No.1 - but the bully won't stop bullying cause he likes it - so the nice guy doesn't hang out with the bully anymore
now the bully hates the nice guy, and the others that he bullies, and he bullies it up some more

funkyderek

A Paduan:

The bully is YHWH, right?

I-CH-TH-U-S

so if God is behind all this what conclusion is best to draw from it, that God is a crazy guy who tortures ppl or is it that he punish's people for doing wrong (even if he is sorta forcing them to do wrong)?

Hardened Heart

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