I need help refuting a very common and stupid jw argument

by Check_Your_Premises 29 Replies latest jw friends

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  Scully

  "If you participate in activity X it will leave less time for spiritual activities"

  Here is a psychological flipside:

  If you participate in Spiritual Activities™ to the exclusion of everything else, doesn't that make you a fanatic? obsessed? an addict?

  If you wanted to participate in another activity but Spiritual Activities™ crowded out time for recreational activities, don't you think that a person could become resentful at never having time to do the things that interest them? Wouldn't it be better to enjoy an interest or activity instead of ending up feeling resentment toward Spiritual Activities™?

  Why would Jehovah give me the talent AND the interest in a certain activity and then not want me to develop those interests? Doesn't that seem unloving for him to do that? Wouldn't he feel insulted if he gave us those gifts and talents and we didn't develop them? Doesn't that show a lack of gratitude for what God gave us?

  There are 5 meetings a week, plus X number of opportunities to participate in the preaching work. There are not always that many opportunities to participate in personal interests, especially if taking a class is involved and working that into a busy schedule. The meetings are not going anywhere. The Watchtower Study can be reviewed any time as long as you have the material handy.

  And this is where the ultimate test comes in (I used it myself when I was trying to decide whether or not to quit the JWs): If I skipped the meetings for a week, and nobody called to see what had happened, I skipped them again for another week. If nobody called after that point, I skipped a third week, and so on and so on. What it boiled down to, for me, was that if this Organization was truly showing the love that Jesus promised would be evident among his true disciples, I wouldn't need to wait for a phone call or a visit. The Brothers™ and Sisters™ would be motivated by love and concern to find out what was keeping me away from the meetings. They didn't. It took MONTHS before anyone noticed that I'd been missing. I was one of those Sisters™ who used to comment at every meeting. I would get asked to prepare an impromptu talk when someone didn't show up. I was regular in service. I would do almost anything for anyone in the congregation to help them, sometimes to my own detriment. And then I got sick.... and it was as though they threw me away because I was no longer useful.
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  AK - Jeff

  And this is where the ultimate test comes in (I used it myself when I was trying to decide whether or not to quit the JWs): If I skipped the meetings for a week, and nobody called to see what had happened, I skipped them again for another week. If nobody called after that point, I skipped a third week, and so on and so on. What it boiled down to, for me, was that if this Organization was truly showing the love that Jesus promised would be evident among his true disciples, I wouldn't need to wait for a phone call or a visit. The Brothers™ and Sisters™ would be motivated by love and concern to find out what was keeping me away from the meetings. They didn't. It took MONTHS before anyone noticed that I'd been missing. I was one of those Sisters™ who used to comment at every meeting. I would get asked to prepare an impromptu talk when someone didn't show up. I was regular in service. I would do almost anything for anyone in the congregation to help them, sometimes to my own detriment. And then I got sick.... and it was as though they threw me away because I was no longer useful.

  My experience was the virtual male version of yours. Still, though we are suspected to be 'apostates' - no effort has been made to actually find out how we think, or what it up in our lives. This was the crux of my original 'investigation' - that horrible lack of Christian love and concern. It is sad to see just how common that experience has been.

  There is no spirituallity there if there is no Christlike love IMHO.

  Jeff
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  Odrade

  Two ideas... one is only obliquely related to what you have posted here...
  Instead of arguing with their statement, tell them, yes, that's true. Every activity you choose to do is a choice that will take time away from something else. But having a varied life will make you more able to relate to many different types of people, and will also make you less likely to "burn out," from only doing one activity. (Hopefully there are a few pioneer "burnouts" at the hall that will come to her mind...)
  Obviously, by now it's clear that you are an "opposer," but maybe you could slip under the radar. Instead of attacking the premise, tempt her with something she's passionate about. (Art lessons, sports training, theater, etc) and assure her that you will make sure that it does not interfere with meeting times, or Saturday service more than x times per year. But that you would like her to do this for you both, because you feel like you have very little in common with her anymore, and you miss her. (A little emotional blackmail is fair turn in this situation, IMO.)
  Your concerns about her education are also valid. So, I propose...bribery. Every fanatic little JW girl knows her best bet of regular pioneering after high school, (and she will want to do this--she has no "status" at the moment, and this will buy her some,) is if she can stay living at home. Tell her that she can live at home if she goes full time to University (not community college with the other JWs,*) for the first two years. You will support her in auxiliary pioneering as long as her grades stay high during this first two years. Then when she reaches her JR year in Uni, she can regular pioneer and finish her degree by going part time. You will support her in this too. BUT, the JR and SR year tuition and expenses will be in a student loan in HER name. You will have a contract that states if she does NOT finish her last two years, or if she gets poor grades because of the pioneering, she will be responsible for the bill. But if she graduates with good marks, you will take care of it.
  My $.02, FWIW.
  *Note: I don't think there is anything wrong with community college, but she will be far more likely to have other JW friends there so she can stay in the brainwashed mindset. She's more likely to get her head straight if she is at a 4-year school from the beginning.
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  Odrade

  Scully, same here. "Why should I go, nobody notices if I'm gone anyways..."
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  TD

  I think the whole argument hinges on the unstated premise that, "You must devote as much time as is physically possible to spiritual activities."

  I would reject that premise out of hand as baseless. The Bible does not define normative conduct for Christians in terms of quotas. How much time you, your children, or anyone else devotes to "spiritual activities" is entirely a personal matter and decision.
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  Check_Your_Premises

  Thanks odrade!! Those are some interesting ideas!

  CYP
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  mouthy

  Can't we move our "spiritual" activities around to accomodate our "worldy" activities?

  I read in the Bible where Jesus died so that we might live more ABUNDENTLY!!!!

  He gave us a brain to think --Talents to use..Only two things he expressed LOUDLY "Love God & Love your neighbour as yourself....Do unto others as you want them to do to you.": Every day living to some is spiriitual, to some it isnt.... We dont need an organisation to tell us how to live- The HOLY SPIRIT teaches us all -( if we want it) if we dont -you might need an organization.... I dont.
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  hideme

  I think the whole argument hinges on the unstated premise that, "You must devote as much time as is physically possible to spiritual activities."

  Read 1 Tim. 5:14 or Tit. 2:4,5 Maybe there are more bible verses like this. Nowhere the bible talks about doing "field service" or "preaching" as a everyday thing. why didn't the bible writers encourage people to preach (instead of having children and working), if that's so important???
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  Odrade

  Mouthy is thinking like a christian again, instead of a brainwashed cult member... bad mouthy! heehee. ;)
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  telltruth

  c_y_p.... i hope you are doing allright, all things considered. combatting anything jw with scripture never seems to get anywhere except running around in circular arguments. scripture is so full of triggers for the jw that you end up facing the good old blank stare, and being told to wait while i find the answer that will refute what you have said. (some elder somewhere will quote some nwt/wt blah,blah,blah) said answer will no doubt completely ignore or circumvent any point that you have no doubt made with considerable effort. remember what you said to me....they are right and you are wrong. instead it may be far more productive to capatilize on what your daughters' interests are. the idea of going to university under a previously mentioned "performance contract' seems like a great place to start. real schooling will present her with so much exposure to the real world among people who aren't constantly driving at her with wt doctrine. if any hard feelings towards this exposure develop they will not be directed at you. not to mention that she will be as all people do, wanting to fit in and belong amongst her new peers. this presents all sorts of opportunities for information from the real world and random knowledge outside of wt doctrines bubble. if presenting this idea to her and her mother/your wife brings up opposition perhaps you could pick up any old watchtower and point to the numerous mention and quoting of some highly qualified doctor or scientist. in fact there was in recent issue some heart warming story of some young jw who went on to become the youngest doctor ever(aren't jw's great) i wonder how one becomes a doctor or scientist that the wt feels fit to quote without a proper university education? just a thought.......telltruth.