I am again confused on a teaching of JW's. While I was at the donut shop an elderly JW woman came up to me and started to discuss Armaggeddon with me. Since this is one of my favorite topics I engaged in dialogue with her. She went on to explain that All of the Governing Body members from Russell to Henschel were of the annoited(144,000) and that some of the 144,000 would survive on earth after Armaggeddon to help the survivors clean up the earth for the new system. Then she went on to say that Jehovah will call them to heaven when the new system begins after they help the survivors(great crowd). She then went on to say that it will be like a twinkling of an eye when the remaining few of the 144,000 will die and go to heaven. I asked this JW woman would this not contradict the bible when it teaches that all of the 144,000 would die before Armaggeddon and be in heaven when Armaggeddon starts or maybe some would die durning Armaggeddon. But I always thought that all of the 144,000 would be dead when Armaggeddon starts. So posters help me out on this one. I am slightly confused on the JW interpretation as well as the Christian interpretation.
I am confused. What do JW's believe about the 144,000 all "dying" before Ar
by booker-t 7 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Narkissos
What she told you corresponds to what I remember (from 20 years ago).
It is still in the Watchtower 7.1.89, p. 28 § 21:
Now it may have changed more recently (I think I read a thread about that here)...Meanwhile, millions are blessing themselves by responding to the ministry of the dwindling bridal remnant. Before all of them finish their earthly course in death, the devastating of the harlotlike world empire of false religion will mark the start of "great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning." The time left is short. If you want to survive, how important it is to share in carrying out the divine commands! (Matthew 24:14, 21; Mark 13:10; Luke 21:15; John 13:34) Such commands have special application in our critical times. So, whether of the bridal remnant or of her "great crowd" of attendants, continue to obey Jehovah to his glory and your own everlasting happiness. How grand it will be for the great crowd, already counted as friends of God, to keep on living as Jehovah ‘makes all things new’ and lasting benefits flow to millions in a paradise earth!
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blondie
The WTS is confused too. First they say that all the anointed have to be dead and resurrected to have a spirit creatures to take part in the marriage of the Bridge of Christ which they say happens shortly after the destruction of Babylon the Great and just before the start of Armageddon.
Then in other publications, they have said that some of the anointed will still be on the earth after Armageddon.
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w54 8/15 p. 502 The Power of Hope ***While the anointed remnant expect to serve on earth for a period after Armageddon, as it pleases Jehovah, and while the other sheep expect to serve Jehovah without a break in life clear through to the end of this system of things at Armageddon and on into the unending time of the new world, yet death due to natural causes or due to keeping integrity may occur before Armageddon
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w97 5/15 p. 20 Theocratic Administration in the Christian Era ***Similarly discussing whether some of the anointed would be on hand to welcome back the resurrected ones, the September 1, 1989, Watchtower said: "This would not be necessary."
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w90 8/15 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***Questions
From Readers·
Will some anointed Christians survive the "great tribulation" to live on earth in the new world before being taken to heaven?Pointedly, the Bible does not say.
Christians have long been interested in the privileges that God might extend to them. (Acts 1:6) That has especially been true in our time since the Kingdom was established. (Matthew 24:3, 24, 34) With the end of this wicked system to come in their time, Christians have wondered whether some spirit-anointed ones might live through "the war of the great day of God" and serve on earth for a time before receiving their heavenly reward. (Revelation 16:14) The Bible does not say that this will occur, yet certain patterns and prophecies have been taken to indicate that it might. Rather than be dogmatic, we can watch to see how God will handle things.
Some Biblical events have parallels later on among God’s people. For instance, we know that Jonah was in a large fish for three days and three nights. Some people would view that as simply an example of divine deliverance, but Jesus said that it was a prophetic pattern of how he would be in the grave for a comparable period before his resurrection. (Jonah 1:17; Matthew 12:40) Yes, Jonah’s experience was a prophetic type. Understandably, God’s servants have looked at prophecies and specific Bible accounts to see whether these might indicate how Jehovah will yet deal with them.
As an example involving Bible prophecy, The Watch Tower of December 15, 1928, discussed Micah 5:2-15. The book of Micah dealt with ‘the Assyrian’s’ desolating of Samaria and the Jews’ return from exile in Babylon. (Micah 1:1, 5-7; 4:10) But it also pointed to later developments, such as the Messiah’s birth in Bethlehem. (Micah 5:2) Micah prophesied that after their deliverance from "the Assyrian," "the remaining ones of Jacob" would become "like dew from Jehovah" and "like a maned young lion among droves of sheep." (Micah 5:6-8) The Watch Tower commented: "This may be taken as an indication that some of the remnant will be on earth even after Armageddon is fought and will then have some more work to do in the name of the Lord and to his praise and glory." Notice the modest, reasonable language used to introduce this possibility: "This may be taken as an indication."
What of a Bible account that might parallel such survival on earth? One example that has been presented concerns Noah and his family. Noah has been viewed as typifying Jesus in this time of the end. (Genesis 6:8-10; Matthew 24:37) As Noah led his wife and their three sons and daughters-in-law through the end of that ancient system, Christ will provide leadership for the remnant of his bride class and those who become children of the "Eternal Father," Jesus. Noah’s wife survived the Flood and shared in the renewing of true worship on a cleansed earth. A parallel might be the survival into the new world of a remnant of the bride class.—Isaiah 9:6, 7; 2 Corinthians 11:2; Revelation 21:2, 9.
Other Biblical accounts have also been viewed as suggesting that some of the anointed might live into the new world. For example, Jeremiah survived the destruction of Jerusalem; "the man" with the secretary’s inkhorn remained to see the executional work before he went back to give his report.—Ezekiel 9:4, 8, 11.
Comments about the possibility that some of the anointed might survive into the new world are made with good intentions and in the light of Biblical precedents for trying to understand prophecies or patterns that could have later parallels. If it turns out that none of the anointed are left on earth, there will be no reason for dissatisfaction. We already have accepted that Biblical matters are understood better as time passes. For instance, The Watchtower of July 15, 1981, discussed Micah 5:6-9 again and explained that "the remnant of spiritual Israelites have not had to wait until after . . . Har–Magedon in order to be as a ‘dew’ of refreshment to people." This discussion again offered the possibility that the remnant might survive God’s great war and for a while "continue to be as a refreshing ‘dew’ to the ‘great crowd’ of ‘other sheep.’" We can see, though, that the passing of time and the increase in spiritual light can broaden and alter our understanding of prophecy or of Bible dramas.—Proverbs 4:18.
We do know that the Bible links the ‘coming of the Son of man’ with ‘the gathering of the chosen ones from the four winds.’ (Matthew 24:29-31) Also, during "the presence of the Lord" in Kingdom power, anointed ones sleeping in death are raised to life in heaven. (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16) These sealed ones are there to become part of the Lamb’s wife. When does that occur?
In the book of Revelation, immediately after John tells of God’s executing the religious harlot, Babylon the Great, he describes "the marriage of the Lamb." A filthy, immoral "woman" is removed from the scene, and we see "the bride, the Lamb’s wife" ‘arrayed in bright, clean, fine linen, which stands for the righteous acts of the holy ones.’ (Revelation 18:10; 19:2, 7, 8; 21:9) The destruction of Babylon the Great is part of the great tribulation. (Matthew 24:21; Revelation 7:14) So it could be reasoned that some of the bride class will survive the great tribulation as evidence of Jehovah’s approval and protection. (Zephaniah 2:3; compare Matthew 24:22.) If they are thus preserved on earth, they could remain here until God chooses to take them to heaven.
However, the presentation in Revelation is not in strict sequential order. And it is not as though the small remnant of anointed ones will be needed to get the new world underway, for they have already trained millions of loyal Christians who will live forever on earth. Accordingly, God could take his anointed ones to heaven immediately after the destruction of Babylon the Great, setting the stage for "the marriage of the Lamb" to occur. All the holy ones could thus share with Christ in ‘shepherding the nations with an iron rod’ in the remainder of the great tribulation. (Revelation 2:26, 27; 19:11-21) If that is how God handles things, all the 144,000 would be with Jesus to ‘rule as kings with the Christ for the entire one thousand years.’—Revelation 20:4.
It certainly is fine that God’s people are keenly interested in peering into how he will direct and reward his servants. (Compare 1 Peter 1:12.) This reflects their confidence that his will is going to be done. Though we cannot and should not be dogmatic about particulars, we can eagerly look forward to what will occur.
[Footnotes]Compare: You May Survive Armageddon Into God’s New World, pages 61, 292, 351; "Your Will Be Done on Earth," page 347; The Watchtower of May 1, 1942, page 133. (All published by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc.)
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Oroborus21
Greetings!
It is not surprising that you are confused or even that the Witness lady is also confused as the various teachings have morphed throughout the years (and I am not even referring to the Russell Era) on this topic.
In short the current belief/teaching is that there will be some of the 144,000 aka anointed left on Earth at least during the start of the Great Tribulation. (The Great Tribulation is a period of time broader than the "Day of Armageddon". Armageddon is viewed as the culmination, the final war of the Great Tribulation). It is generally thought that some of the 144,000 will be left at the conclusion of the GT/Armageddon but expressions about this are more circumspect and vague. It is also vague as to how long into the New System/Millenial Reign (which begins immediately after Armageddon concludes) such anointed might live and help direct the earthly aspects of God's Kingdom, but it is thought that since these person's place is ruling in heaven (as kings and priests) that those living will not see death but be changed in "a twinkling of an eye" into their spiritual/non-material existence.
The basic scriptural reasons for the above come from two lines of reasoning:
1. The Scripture that says that the days of the tribulation will be "cut short for the sake of the holy ones" (to preserve them alive)
and
2. The FDS doctrine teaching in general. Because this doctrine holds that this slave continues to provide food blah, blah, blah until being given charge over everything. The view being that the master's man will be in charge over the domestics and around until the new system.
-Eduardo
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sinis
If you really want to mess with her mind ask here to read Revelation 20:4
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. Gee, it seems that the sealing might not have come in 1935. I don't remember the "Beast", according to WT chronolgy, coming to power. This might, just might, indicate a FUTURE event and thus the whole premise around 1935 is hogwash and a ploy by Rutherford to create 2 groups since most of the R&F claimed to be "heaven bound". Appearently, the R&F numbers were getting dangerously close to 144,000 and Da Judge couldn't have that.
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stev
This question is related to the timing of the rapture in relation to the tribulation. There are different theories of the rapture: pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation.
C. T. Russell originally held to the "partial rapture" theory, although he never called it that, and rarely used the word "rapture", instead using "change", "glorification", "translation". If you do a Google search on "partial rapture", you will find some webpages on it. The partial rapture theory is the theory that Christians will be raptured in groups, and the more faithful will be raptured first, followed by the less faithful. This has always been a minority view, because of the criticism that this would mean a salvation by works, instead of grace. C. T. Russell called the first group the "Little Flock" or "144,000", and the second group the "Great Company". Both of these classes were spiritual. The Great Company would go through the "great tribulation".
But there was confusion among the early Bible students, because there was confusion on both the "rapture" and the "tribulation". The rapture,or change, of the Little Flock had been expected in 1878, 1881, and 1914, but it did not occur. C. T. Russell modified his teaching on the "change" over the years. The tribulation was expected originally before 1914. But that also did not occur. Instead of the tribulation, or "time of trouble" ending in 1914, it was changed to begin in 1914. The glorification was still expected sometime in the future.
C. T. Russell expected that there might be an earthly class after the Great Company, similar to the earthly class of the "Ancient Worthies" of the Old Testament. Somehow the belief in a spiritual "Great Company" class was modified into an earthly "Great Crowd" class.
This only makes the matter more confusing. Perhaps the cause of this confusion has been the attempt to make predictions of the future, and to hold to a dogmatic endtimes chronological timetable of events, when the Bible does not provide us with one.
Steve
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Honesty
You really want to shake her faith in the Watchtower corporation?
Get her to explain this scripture to you:
Heb 9:27-28
And just as it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment— so also the Messiah , having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for Him. -
Frogleg
Assuming that you are asking this because of your faith, then the best I can say is: don't worry. If the 144000 is literal and made up of JWs and all that shyte, great! We all know what's comming. If not, great! Its all going to be a big surprise!
If you are one of the 144000, as defined by the JWs, then I seriously doubt you would be on this board asking the questions you are asking. Otherwise, you are "one of us". In that case, I recommend that you relax. Have some sex, some smoke, maybe a single malt scotch as well. This planet and all of its pleasures was made for you. Wow, what a responsibility, huh? Tell me, what's the difference between the KInks doing "You Really Got Me" and the Blues Brothers doing "Everybody Neeeds Sombody To Love"? Humans are us. Do you want to be a God(dess)? Then, the 144000 are a mildly interesting footnote to the Bible. Do you find yourself seeing the future in terms of "Earthly pleasures"? Do you see 13 channels of shyte on the TV to choose from? Then you've no reason nor motivation to concern yourself with the 144000. They are here to serve us, not the other way round.