There Are Over 6 Million Jehovah's Witnesses..... (page 2)

AlmostAtheist

Well, if we can believe that Jesus actually said "No one comes to the Father except through me" (in other words, he is the mediator between God and all people) and the WTS is saying to JWs that Jesus was only talking about the 144,000, the Little Flock™, and that salvation is dependent upon approved association with the WTS, the messages are in conflict with one another.

Is that really the mediation that JW's claim he doesn't do for the rank-and-file? I thought it was more specific to the "You will rule with me in my kingdom"-bit. I never got the impression (even since exiting) that the Watchtower suggests Jesus doesn't serve as a direct channel between Jehovah and mankind.

(Hee, hee. Two atheists debating the role Jesus plays. You wanna bat around what happened to that "other Riker" from Star Trek, next?)

Does anybody have a Watchtower quote that defines what mediator-role Jesus plays only between the 144,000 and Jehovah?

Dave

blondie

I will tell you this, when there were anointed brothers in just about every congregation, only they could

be elders/servants

give talks

say prayers

conduct the meetings

It was awhile before they started using the other sheep in such capacities. It wasn't until 1938 that the other sheep were invited/required to attend the memorial, were encouraged to get baptized, were encouraged to go from door to door, and at first only the anointed were considered "Jehovah's witnesses" because only spiritual Israelities qualified.

AuldSoul

AA,

It isn't very popular, so it isn't very publicized. But it is in print.

Worldwide Security Under the 'Prince of Peace' (1986) chap. 1 pp. 10-11
The Desire for Peace and Security Worldwide
15 It would be out of line with the plain teachings of the Scriptures to believe that God does not have an organization, an organized people, that he exclusively recognizes. Jesus Christ recognized that his heavenly Father had a visible organization. Until Pentecost 33 C.E., it was the Jewish organization in covenant relationship with Jehovah God under the Law of Moses.—Luke 16:16.
16 Just as the ancient nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with Jehovah God through the mediator Moses, so the nation of spiritual Israel, “the Israel of God,” has a covenant relationship through a mediator. (Galatians 6:16) It is as the apostle Paul wrote to his Christian fellow worker: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.” (1 Timothy 2:5) Was Moses the mediator between Jehovah God and mankind in general? No, he was the mediator between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the nation of their fleshly descendants. Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members. This spiritual nation is like a little flock of Jehovah’s sheeplike ones.—Romans 9:6; Revelation 7:4.

Nothing has contradicted this view since its publication, it got support without modification by a Questions From Readers (w89 8/15 p. 30).

AuldSoul

Frogleg

Wait a minute!!!! What about that other Rikker?

Hellrider

Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members. This spiritual nation is like a little flock of Jehovah’s sheeplike ones.—Romans 9:6; Revelation 7:4.

That is just so sick. No wonder they don`t mention that part of the doctrine. That Christ is the mediator for all mankind (all who accepts him as savior) is just all over the NT. It`s everywhere! They`re pretty full of themselves, these "anointed".

FairMind

Well, if we can believe that Jesus actually said "No one comes to the Father except through me" (in other words, he is the mediator between God and all people)

AlmostAthiest says it correctly. Jesus is the mediator for the new covenant. The new covenant is with the 144,000 kingdom heirs not with all who are saved via Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. Also one does not have to be one of the 144,000 to approach God in prayer. All who approach God in prayer (144,000 and all others) must do so through Jesus. This is the way I understand things.

AlmostAtheist

It isn't very popular, so it isn't very publicized. But it is in print.

I know I've heard this over and over, I don't think they hide from it.

The issue is that you and they have a different definition of mediator. They are speaking very specifically of the (alleged) contract between Jehovah and his ruling body -- Jesus and the 144,000. You sound like you are tying Jesus being a savior to the idea of him being a mediator. So if he's one, he's the other. But that's not what they are saying.

I can tell you that when I was a JW, I knew he wasn't my mediator. And I couldn't have cared less. I wasn't in on his little side deal to give heavenly homes to a select few, so no biggee. He was may savior, and that was all that mattered.

Viewed from their standpoint, do you still see this as a massive issue?

Dave

heathen

They also love to use that FDS doctrine to support all this . They were appointed over all of Gods domestics . The bible is clear that there is only one mediator between God and man that being Jesus christ so for them to take that seat is blaspheme . 1st Timothy 2:5

mkr32208

So they should ACTUALLY close the prayers with

"In Ted Javarez's name we pray... amen"

What a dillhole of a religion...

AuldSoul

Yes. If he isn't our mediator between us and God, we don't have one.

Without a mediator, how can our prayers be heard?

They can't. The "ransom for all" is in 1 Timothy 2:6, same context. No ransom, no release. All they ever say is "by extension" it applies to blah, blah, blah.

It either applies to everyone or it doesn't. I know you are Almost and Atheist now, so you probably don't care now.

You probably didn't care while you were a JW because you didn't know the sense in which Jesus was actually a mediator, according to the Bible. In other words, you believed what you were spoon-fed. Thayer's says:

Their legalistic interpretation and comparison leaves out all reference to mediator in terms of restoring a relationship and arbitrator. He either is our go-between, or he is not. How were you taught?

You were taught like me: He is and he isn't.

AuldSoul

There Are Over 6 Million Jehovah's Witnesses.....

Share this