by Honesty 39 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
They also love to use that FDS doctrine to support all this . They were appointed over all of Gods domestics.
Now heathen, you know full well that Jesus got back from his long trip in 1914, took 3½ years to look around, rewarded the FDS, and he's been unpacking his bags ever since.
But when he gets done, Satan better watch out!
AuldSoul
He either is our go-between, or he is not. How were you taught?
At least one of us doesn't understand what the watchtower teaches. I'm fully prepared to accept that it's me, but I gotta take one more stab at this.
The Watchtower teaches that Jesus is the way to get to Jehovah. When you pray, you are supposed to pray through him. You just aren't allowed to pray to Jehovah directly -- he's too holy, or you're too imperfect, or something -- you have to pray through Jesus. If you're calling Jesus in that role a mediator, then the Watchtower teaches that Jesus is your mediator. (In this specific sense.)
He could easily be your mediator in some other way, too. Just like a lawyer could represent you in a divorce, a civil suit, and a criminal suit all at the same time. Or he might drop the civil case and let some other lawyer handle it. Then he would be your mediator in two ways, but not in a third.
In Watchtowerland, Jesus plays a "mediator" role with the 144,000 and Jehovah. THAT'S the mediator they talk alot about. When they use the word mediator, they are 99% of the time talking about that one specific role. This doesn't exclude Jesus for serving in another mediator role for other Christians, or all Christians.
Can anybody jump in here and tell one of auld or I that we're off base, and why?
Thanks!
Dave
I agree that the WTS teaches that Jesus is a mediator in that role. But they use the same Scripture to prove it: 1 Timothy 2:5.
It can't mean he is the mediator for ONLY 144,000 and also mean he is EVERYONE'S mediator. You get it?
It is the covenant that opens the door to approach.
Romans 11:25-32
1 Corinthians 11:23-26
2 Corinthians 3:1-18
Galatians 3:10-22
Hebrews 7:18-28
I want to spend a bit more on this next chunk:
Hebrews 9:15-28 15 So that is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that, because a death has occurred for [their] release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, the ones who have been called might receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance. 16 For where there is a covenant, the death of the [human] covenanter needs to be furnished. 17 For a covenant is valid over dead [victims], since it is not in force at any time while the [human] covenanter is living. 18 Consequently neither was the former [covenant] inaugurated without blood. 19 For when every commandment according to the Law had been spoken by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the young bulls and of the goats with water and scarlet wool and hyssop and sprinkled the book itself and all the people, 20 saying: “This is the blood of the covenant that God has laid as a charge upon YOU.” 21 And he sprinkled the tent and all the vessels of the public service likewise with the blood. 22 Yes, nearly all things are cleansed with blood according to the Law, and unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place.
23 Therefore it was necessary that the typical representations of the things in the heavens should be cleansed by these means, but the heavenly things themselves with sacrifices that are better than such sacrifices. 24 For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us. 25 Neither is it in order that he should offer himself often, as indeed the high priest enters into the holy place from year to year with blood not his own. 26 Otherwise, he would have to suffer often from the founding of the world. But now he has manifested himself once for all time at the conclusion of the systems of things to put sin away through the sacrifice of himself. 27 And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment, 28 so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation.
"Unless blood is poured out no forgiveness takes place" for those who are PARTY to the covenant. When the High Priest poured out blood under the Mosaic Law, the sins of those not under covenant were not forgiven. He "appears before...God for" those who are in the covenant, not those outside it. He invites anyone who wants in the covenant to come into the covenant, but they won't be forgiven otherwise.
Either he is a mediator for all or he is not. This "application by extension" crap is what they teach but it isn't Biblical in the least.
AuldSoul
They are not Christians despite what they claim, if Christ is not their mediator they don't have the adopting Holy Spirit and therefore God can not be their father, their situation is bizarre and unique. They believe in Christ but not in His mediorship.
No wonder I got out of that wacked religion.
greendawn--- The great crowd already accepts the fact that only the 144k have holy spirit .The've been brainwashed to believe that understanding the bible depends on obedience to the WTBTS publishing corporation .What's sad is how you see statements like , look how fortunate you are , you don't even have to think we've done it all for you , isn't that special ? The WTBTS has spent the last 100yrs disclaiming most of what it stated in publications but still thinks it has done a great service to mankind .... IN THE WORDS OF BLONDIE ........ GAG ALERT
Actually the WTS does teach that the great crowd have the same amount of holy spirit as the anointed but they qualify it.
***
w96 6/15 p. 31 Questions From ReadersCan we say that God’s servants today who have the earthly hope have as much of God’s spirit as do spirit-anointed Christians?
This question is not a new one. This same matter was addressed in "Questions From Readers" in The Watchtower of April 15, 1952. Many have become Witnesses since then, so we can consider the question and in the process review what that earlier material said.
Fundamentally, the answer is, yes, faithful brothers and sisters of the other sheep class can share equally with anointed ones in receiving God’s holy spirit.—John 10:16.
This, of course, does not mean that the spirit operates in the same way on all individuals. Think back to faithful servants in pre-Christian times, who certainly received God’s spirit. With power from the spirit, some of them slew ferocious beasts, cured the sick, even raised the dead. And they needed the spirit to write inspired books of the Bible. (Judges 13:24, 25; 14:5, 6; 1 Kings 17:17-24; 2 Kings 4:17-37; 5:1-14) The Watchtower said: "Though not of the anointed class, they were filled with holy spirit."
From another angle, consider men and women in the first century who were anointed with holy spirit, becoming spiritual sons of God with the heavenly hope. All had been anointed, but that does not mean that the spirit thereafter operated in the same way on all of them. That is clear from 1 Corinthians chapter 12. There the apostle Paul discussed gifts of the spirit. We read in verses 8, 9, and 11: "To one there is given through the spirit speech of wisdom, to another speech of knowledge according to the same spirit, to another faith by the same spirit, to another gifts of healings by that one spirit. . . . But all these operations the one and the same spirit performs, making a distribution to each one respectively just as it wills."
Significantly, not all anointed ones back then had miraculous gifts of the spirit. In 1 Corinthians chapter 14, Paul mentioned a congregation meeting in which one had the gift of tongues, but no one present had the gift of translation. Nonetheless, at some earlier point, each one of them had experienced anointing with spirit. Would it be reasonable to say that the brother having the gift of tongues had more of the spirit than others present? No. Those other anointed ones were not disadvantaged, as if unable to understand the Bible as well as that one or unable to face trials as well. The spirit operated in a special way on the brother who could speak in tongues. Still, he and they needed to stay close to Jehovah and to "keep getting filled with spirit," as Paul wrote.—Ephesians 5:18.
Regarding those of the remnant today, they certainly have received God’s spirit. At one point it operated on them in a special way—at the time when they were anointed and adopted as spiritual sons. Thereafter they "keep getting filled with spirit," having its help when they seek to understand the Bible more clearly, take the lead in the preaching work, or face tests—personal or organizational.
Members of the "other sheep," though not having had the experience of being anointed, in other respects do receive holy spirit. The Watchtower of April 15, 1952, observed:
"The ‘other sheep’ today perform the same preaching work as the remnant, under the same trying conditions, and manifest the same faithfulness and integrity. They feed at the same spiritual table, eating the same food, absorbing the same truths. Being of the earthly class, with earthly hopes and a keen interest in earthly things, they might interest themselves more in scriptures relating to earthly conditions in the new world; whereas the anointed remnant, with heavenly hopes and strong personal interest in the things of the spirit, might study more diligently those things in God’s Word. . . . Yet the fact remains that the same truths and the same understanding are available to both classes, and it is just how the individuals apply themselves in study that determines the comprehension of heavenly and earthly things they acquire. The Lord’s spirit is available in equal portions to both classes, and knowledge and understanding are offered equally to both, with equal opportunities for absorbing it."
I notice that's a 1996 article there blondie . That would be after my studies . Looks like they did a 180 on that dogma as well . I remember I felt an anointing and was highly critqued over it , like suddenly I was supposed to speak in toungues and do things to prove it , of course I wasn't in the org. as a publisher either or member in anyway . Maybe that's why I find this site so interesting . I'm still trying to figure that one out .
Can anybody jump in here and tell one of auld or I that we're off base, and why?
AlmostAtheist, I understand what you are saying perfectly and I agree with you! I wonder if anyone posting on this topic has considered that if Jesus is GOD then how can he also be a mediator or go between in mankinds relationship with GOD?
I mentioned this to my Dad and he doesn't care. He'll have been baptized for close to 60 years soon.
What bothered me was that - to my personal understanding - the Bible doesn't divide up Jesus' mediatorial role. There's nothing to suggest that he mediates this for some people and that for others - he doesn't mediate prayers for some people, mediate by applying the value of his blood to cover sins and make us acceptable to God for others, mediates a new covenant with still others. According to the New Testament, he does all these things for the members of the "body of Christ" - so if he only mediates for the "anointed" to whom the NT was written, the r&f "other sheep" don't benefit from any of it. He's either got the job - and all of the job - or none at all. Only the WTS tries to split up Jesus' "role" into "roles". At least, that's how I see it.
