Hello Leolaia
You wrote:
"Nonetheless, a few parallels between the two are persuasive, as they were to early apologists like Justin Martyr and Tertullian."
I've had the distinct displeasure of having to read the long-winded writings of these men. As I recall, there were more than a few similarities. Augustine, as well as a few others, even went so far as to say "Christianity" has been around for as long as humankind.
When I read Platonic philosophy regarding the Logos and Christos, I could not disagree more profoundly that "paganism" borrowed from Christianity. Clearly, the reverse is true.
I'm posting about this matter for an enjoyable release from dealing with hateful people, I want no fight with you. I'm just wanting some friendly debate. I know nothing about you really, except that you're a god writer and an even better scholar. So please don't take it in any other spirit than it's intended. If I didn't think I could learn from you, I wouldn't bring these topics up with you.
Nathan
The Roots of Christianity. What is the TRUTH?
by Sirona 27 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Nate Merit
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doofdaddy
One that springs to mind is the "virgin" birth. Apparently a common myth in ancient cultures.
It appears to be tacked on to the account of jesus birth. Why?
Well, the whole prophecy of jesus royal lineage thru his mother and FATHER doesn't stand to logic if the seed put into his mother was from god.
Why put the detailed chronology of Joseph in the account if he is not jesus father?
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Nate Merit
I cant type to save my life.
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Leolaia
For one thing, the apologists were trying to sell Christianity to pagans, and thus exaggerated the degree to which paganism anticipated Christianity or had been teaching the gospel in distorted form...often by reading Platonic or Greek concepts into the OT or by reading distinctly Christian ideas into earlier Greek literature (such as Plato referring to the soul of the universe as like the letter chi being seen by Justin Martyr as an actual reference to Christ and his cross), thus what would impress the modern-day critic on the origin of Christianity is not the same as what was claimed by the church fathers as parallels between the two.
When I referred to mystery religions and Neo-Platonists being influenced by Christianity, I was of course referring to the third and fourth centuries when Christianity and mystery religions were vying for dominance and both were influencing each other. Earlier on the influence was only one way.
The Jewish soil in which Christianity arose was already saturated with Hellenistic concepts, but it was still distinctively and overwhelmingly Jewish in many ways. The narratives of the gospels, for instance, are overwhelmingly built up through allusions to OT stories and texts. As I've discussed in earlier threads, the strictly Hellenist "Jesus Mysteries" perspective of Freke-Gandy is too narrow a view of early Christianity....there were some early varieties of Christianity, such as Jewish-Christian groups, who viewed Jesus entirely through his OT model and not at all through the "heavenly man" or "Godman" myth.
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Nate Merit
Howdy Leolaia
I hope I can get you back here to continue this discussion.
You wrote:
"For one thing, the apologists were trying to sell Christianity to pagans, and thus exaggerated the degree to which paganism anticipated Christianity"
(I was under the impression these early Fathers were trying to defend Christianity from accusations by the "pagans" that Christianity had stolen much from them, not so much trying to sell them Christianity. They were attempting to shore up the faith of the faithful. Also, how do you know they were exaggerating? What sources would enable me to see this too?)
or had been teaching the gospel in distorted form...often by reading Platonic or Greek concepts into the OT or by reading distinctly Christian ideas into earlier Greek literature (such as Plato referring to the soul of the universe as like the letter chi being seen by Justin Martyr as an actual reference to Christ and his cross), thus what would impress the modern-day critic on the origin of Christianity is not the same as what was claimed by the church fathers as parallels between the two."
(This is a very difficult sentence to understand, but I'll do my best. Sorry. I keep reading it over and over and it makes no sense. Partly I'm tired and partly it's my many meds, but I can't decipher it. Too much in one sentence for me right now. From my own limited readings of Plato I find Christian thought very much anticipated in the Logos and Christos, which at least demonstrates to me Christians used Platonism for their own purposes)"When I referred to mystery religions and Neo-Platonists being influenced by Christianity, I was of course referring to the third and fourth centuries when Christianity and mystery religions were vying for dominance and both were influencing each other. Earlier on the influence was only one way."
(How do you know this cross-pollenization was occurring? I would like to read the actual primary sources. I don't doubt your word, but such things always make much more of an impact read directly. Also you wrote: "Earlier on the influence was only one way." Which way was that, in your view? If I sound very dense, well, I am of late)"The Jewish soil in which Christianity arose was already saturated with Hellenistic concepts, but it was still distinctively and overwhelmingly Jewish in many ways. The narratives of the gospels, for instance, are overwhelmingly built up through allusions to OT stories and texts."
(Yes, I'm aware of Hellenized Judaism and that it managed to keep it's Jewish identity. This is precisely what I am saying. Also, the narratives of the Gospels are indeed midrash)
"As I've discussed in earlier threads, the strictly Hellenist "Jesus Mysteries" perspective of Freke-Gandy is too narrow a view of early Christianity....there were some early varieties of Christianity, such as Jewish-Christian groups, who viewed Jesus entirely through his OT model and not at all through the "heavenly man" or "Godman" myth."
(My views aren't built exclusively on Freke and Gandy's books, nor even mainly. Earl Doherty makes an even better case than they do, as do a few others. I recommend Freke and Gandy for lay people. It's almost impossible to get anyone to read anything so I try to make it as painless as possible. Even then most people refuse to read a damn thing. I don't hang with such dumkophs, and even my wife and I have some problems in this area. She hates to have her worldview challenged or to have her horizons expanded. It damn near resulted in our seperating not too long ago. Anyway, back to the Myth of Jesus. Obviously you are even more aware than I am of the highly developed concepts of the Logos and Christos which predated Christianity. That alone pretty much cinches the case, in my understanding, of whom borrowed from whom.
Even in Freke and Gandy's books they discuss the early Jewish-Christian groups such as the Ebionites. They don't neglect them. In fact, they argue that the Jesus Cult began as a Jewish movement. However, even so, I haven't read anything (yet) that would lead me to believe such groups remained in the majority for long, if indeed they ever were.
I don't see things the way you do. I am scratching my head trying to harmonize what I've read with the idea that the mystery religions borrowed from Christianity. Surely you wouldn't make that claim about Osiris? The dying and rising Godman is far older than Christianity. Granted, Christianity brought together many of the disparate elements into one Myth, but the ingredients preceded the cake.
I reject utterly any supernatural claims for the Bible and Christianity. I was once a Bible toting fundy, and as educated as a fundy can be on such matters and remain a fundy, but I was as full of moonshine and Josh McDowell as any other fundy. If there is a genuine supernatural element in Christianity that is not to be found in other paths, then I'll be right back where I started; with an angry little Jesus monkey on my back and a Legion of doubting, questioning voices inside. Not to mention the abject burden of guilt for simply existing, thinking and feeling that the condition of the cosmos is our fault, my fault.
"the third and fourth centuries when Christianity and mystery religions were vying for dominance and both were influencing each other"
(I thought that by the fourth century the vying for dominance was pretty much over. Oh well. I am far more at peace now than I ever was as a mainstream Christian, and my joy, though quieter, is more lasting. I don't have to constantly slay inner dragons of doubt arising from the use of my intellect. Maybe I should simply stop studying. That's hard when you've devoted a large part of youe entire adult life to studying. You would know that as well better than I)
Thanks for responding Leolaia. It would be fun to actually talk to you someday. There are very few people such as yourself and Narkissos around. Zero in my actual life. I don't think I understand quite yet where you're coming from, but I am trying. Just ask my wife. She'll confirm just how trying I can be. I've been paying close attention to my posts. Take a look and see how many active posts dropped dead as soon as I posted. Taint coincidence.
All the best to you. If you ever wish to email me, whip up a hotmail or yahoo account and drop me a line at [email protected]
In Light,
Nathan -
Leolaia
Nate....I'm going to bed, but I wish to clarify one thing....the "cross-pollination" you refer to is at a rather late stage in the game...I was talking about the third and fourth centuries, not the first and second (when Christianity itself took shape). Since I'm not as well acquainted with this later period, I will have to check on things for you....I was basing my comment on what I read in an article not too long ago about the competition between Christianity and mystery cults in the period before Constantine. As for the apologists exaggerating things, I was referring to them bringing up things to emphasize the connection that no one today would think has anything to do with each other, such as the story of Bellerophon flying to heaven on Pegasus and Jesus being prophesied riding into Jerusalem on a mule (cf. Justin Martyr, 1 Apology 65); I do not believe that either story influenced the other, or even have much resemblence other than generic. There is many other examples I've seen, but nothing that easily comes to mind right now....
And thanks for the kind invitation to discussion offline.
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diamondblue1974
I think it was back in september someone had posted asking how many ex jws had become pagan; someone posted a thread suggesting that Christianity had its origins in paganism also.
He posted a link to this site which I read with interest however I must admit I cannot vouch for its academic quality as it seems to be one persons opinion or findings as opposed to a consideration of many.
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Billygoat
So much of this discussion is over my head, as I'm not a scholar. So I'll try to put in my blue-collar cents without sounding like I'm talking out of my butt.
As an active Christian, I realize my personal Christian beliefs are tinctured with some pagan flavor, mostly regarding nature. There is nowhere in my life I experience God stronger than when I'm immersed in nature. Be it camping, hiking, riding horses at my sister-in-laws, or just sitting in my backyard sunning with my animals. It is there in the silence (sometimes noise) of nature that I feel the presence of my Lord stronger than in many church services. I also believe there are layers of human psyche that can be "tapped" into, some have the gift to do it, others not, and many inbetween that experience it without realizing what they're experiencing. I've experienced that in nature, in orgasm, as well as in singing worship songs in my church. It is an experience of being separated, isolated and yet ONE with everything around me. It always leaves me understanding Life better. Less judgemental, more open, loved and more loving.
It doesn't surprise me that Christianity would be peppered with pagan beliefs, history, and mythology. But unlike many of my Christian friends, I try not to deny my Christian heritage. I embrace that my history would be flavored by other belief systems that teach the same core values of Christianity: love, live, let other do the same. *shrug* It seems so easy to me, but at the same time, I understand the uneasiness that some Christians have with knowing their history is peppered by pagan beliefs. Too many believe that pagan means occult, which I don't find the case.
Does any of this make sense to anyone else or do I sound crazy? I've never really come out to share these thoughts of mine before. I'm feeling a little vulnerable as I put these words down. Like I just walked into the AP class after having stepped off the short bus.
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Nate Merit
Hi Billygoat
This sounds a lot like me. We're both born nature mystics.
Nathan -
Billygoat
Oh good, you rode the short bus too?
j/k