jwfacts said:I like the idea of discussing 1919 good idea. keep reminding them every time you bring up some wacky teaching from this time. "WAS THAT PROPER SPRITUAL FOOD AT THE PROPER TIME" over and over. they will get the point and can't really back out " either it was truth or it wasn't. remember there is no light in darkness. prov. 4"19 casn be used also you should have a field day . and really piss them off. or open thier eyes. hope it goes well.
I need help with a discussion with my parents!
by jwfacts 36 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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johnny cip
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TD
The entire JW faith is built around two basic premises that no JW can deny.
- Only one religion is correct.
- This can be established objectively
The first premise is openly stated in their literature and the second is inherent in their preaching work. (e.g. Survival of Armageddon is based upon the householder's response to the "truth.")
It should be self apparent that a valid defense of the JW faith cannot compromise either of these two premises. This is the mistake your parents are making. A fallacy of consistency.
Any religion can excuse past mistakes by saying, "The light gets brighter." Any religion can excuse current mistakes by saying "God will fix that." Any religion can say, "We're not as bad as the others are."
This defense reduces their claim of being the one true religion to a subjective claim and makes an absolute mockery of their "Preaching work."
APOSTATES: Why is it, again, that we're being destroyed, Lord? JESUS: Because you aren't associated with our visible organization, our only channel of communication. APOSTATES: But how were we supposed to know it was your channel? JESUS: Because they're the only ones teaching the truth. All the others teach falsehood. APOSTATES: But, Lord, remember the generation that wasn't going to die? JESUS: Oh, that... well, they're going to make some mistakes sometimes, because they're human. APOSTATES: And 1914, and 1925, and 1975... pyramids, vaccinations, blood transfusions, the separating work, speaking prophecies that failed in your father's name, and then claiming they didn't, lying to cover up their errors, blaming false prophecies on the rank and file,rewriting their books to hide failed prophecies, rewriting their history to hide their failings... JESUS: Well, see, I've got you there. I let that happen as a test on you. And you failed it miserably. APOSTATES: In what way was it a test, Lord? JESUS: To see if you would stay loyal even when my people taught falsehood. APOSTATES: And how was it, again, that we were going to know they were your people, Lord? JESUS: Because they were the only ones teaching truth. Everyone else was teaching falsehood. APOSTATES: And why is it, again, that we needed to be in association with them to have your approval, Lord? JESUS: So you would be worshipping with spirit and truth, not in falsehood like the others. APOSTATES: Kill us now, Lord. Please.
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jwfacts
I just got off the phone with my mother after a three hour conversation. Very dissappointingly my father did not want to be part of it. He is the one that is more logical and I thought if there was any hope he would need to be involved.
It was very upsetting, but I was half expecting that, and you had warned me. I started with trying to get Mum to reason on a persons thinking process, why can others be equally convinced of their postion. Discussed that discussing doctrine is pointless until the premise of ones beliefs are established . For a JW that premise is the F&D slave. Went through why an Org is not necessary and not even biblical. How the temple was cleansed in 1919 yet JWs were still engaged in the same pagan and wrong ideas up to the 1930s. Virtually every answer from Mum was word for word a standard WTS response. I kept saying that they arent her ideas, they are Watchtower answers. What is her idea, what makes sense to her? She was adamant that they are her ideas, it is irrelevant that they correspond with the Watchtower because they are truth. She sounded fairly unmoved even with all the wrong dates and when they were changed, even though she had not being aware of a lot of it before tonight. I mentioned the Worship of Jesus as that is very important to her but go not response at all.
I went after that into a little bit of doctrine to try to show there is sound reasoning on why saying Jehovah is not necessary for salvation since it never appears in the NT. Why the blood stand is understood differently by Christians, and the current WTS stance is not even logical at the moment. Again the standard WTS answers were given and I could not get her to even reason that it could be seen in any other way. The only bit of ground given was on disfellowshipping being wrong in part.
I asked if the WTS changed and particular doctrine, was there one that would be significant enough to make her realise it is not truth. She would not commit to anything. I was hoping she would at least commit to blood, or trinity or something. But she wouldn't.
Mrs Ozzie said the other night something i had never noticed. That when Jesus asked Peter if he would leave he said "Whom would I go to?" (even in the NWT) but a JW always says it as "Where will I go to?". I asked Mum and was blown away when she said "Where". I tried to drive home that a JW will insert Organisation into a lot of scriptures assigned to Jesus. I just wonder if that will ever hit home with her.
At least I know I have had my piece. These days I have what makes the JWs wrong well understood and well structured in my own mind. If what i said tonight can not move her, then nothing I say ever will. I guess I can now move on. I think there might be a saying that says there is nothing worse than unfulfilled hope. I can now give up the hope that I can ever say anything of any effect. I still hope some other thing will move her, but I no longer need to keep researching and finding more answers in a vain hope that the catalyst will be something I say.
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JT
Your exp is not different from practically all who have taken the Frontal attack approach that you chose.
sorry to hear about what happend, but not surprised the least, i have been at this for over 8yrs and i can count on one hand and take away a few fingers of those who have had success in doing this
take a look at this site when you get a chance and tell me what you think
why Bad beliefs will not die
http://www.csicop.org/si/2000-11/beliefs.html
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=7798&site=3#230204
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jwfacts
thanks JT, very interesting. I guess I just wanted the chance to say what I finally know, it feels a lot better to have been able to have done that. At the end of the day what some one does with the information is their choice.
BTW, One of the other things i raised was that the Great Crowd do not have a mediator. Mum did not believe me. It is surprising how many life long well researched people do not know many of their own beliefs, particularly the ones they do not want to believe. -
ozziepost
i raised was that the Great Crowd do not have a mediator. Mum did not believe me. It is surprising how many life long well researched people do not know many of their own beliefs, particularly the ones they do not want to believe
That was the crunch for Mrs Ozzie. Like you say, surprising how many of the R&F will deny their own teachings!
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JT
thanks JT, very interesting. I guess I just wanted the chance to say what I finally know, it feels a lot better to have been able to have done that. At the end of the day what some one does with the information is their choice.
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your point well taken