Desolation of Jerusalem

by Alwayshere 240 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

undercover

Our methodology and interpretation is superior to that of modern scholars because we have revelation form God

and that's why this thread and all the ones like it are a complete waste of effort.
You can't argue or debate with delusional whackos
scholar

Alan F
Welcome back! Where have you been hiding for so long? Looking desperately for additional evidence to support the Jonsson nonsense? Have we beyond 18 lines of evidence or are we still stuck on so-called 14 lines of evicence?
Celebrated WT scholars have carefully examined all of the evidence and have determined under the guidance of Holy Spirit that the date for the Return was 537BCE as most scholars attest. Thus fulfilling the seventy years of foretold by Jeremiah, traced by Daniel, confirmed by Ezra and historically agreed upon by Josephus. The seventy years thus being a fixed period of seventy years of Exile, Servitude and Desolation.
The seventy years described in Jeremiah 25 refer to Judah specifically but part of the oracle is also addressed to the nations beginning with Babylon in verse 12 to the remainder of that chapter. The Jonsson hypothesis mistakenly combines verses 8-12 in an endeavour to prove that the seventy years therein is one of domination of Babylon over Judah and the nations and involved servitude of Judah and the nations to Babylon. This is a big exegetical mistake. BIG MISTAKE.
What you fail to discern what celebrated WT scholars along with most leading commentators that the oracle is addressed to Judah alon from verse 8 to 11 and a new oracle begins from verse 12 which is addressed to Babylon. The brilliant and ever-so brilliant NWT indicates a paragraph division between verse 11 and 12 so verse 12 now introduces a new and separate context.
Proof that verses 8-11 refer to Judah alone is made clear when one reads the very first sentence at the beginning of the chapter whereupon the word of Jehovah concerning all of the people of Judah...Verse 2- Jeremiah spoke concerning all the people of Judah and concerning all the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Verse 4- Jehovah sent to all his servants the prophets. The rest of the discourse contains the plural YOU from verses 4-7 repeated in verse 8 which opens the 70 year section from 8-11. In verse 9, Nebuchadenesser is brought to this land and its people which proves absolutely that verses 1 -11 forma a composite oracle addressed to Judah.
Jeremiah 25 with the more specific verse 8-11 most clearly describe the fate and punishment of Judah which clearly was a period of exile to Babylon where they would serve the king of Babylon leaving behind their land- Judah completely desolated which Jeremiah poetically describes.
Josephus confirms our interpretation of the seventy years as I have described as a period from the Fall to the Return. His description of the period is that of exile-servitude-desolation and he makes in total 5 references in his writings. The Jonsson hypothesis agree with this in GTR, 2004.p.298, ftn.29. There is nothing vague about these references. Apostates attempt to conceal these facts to a single reference in Against Apion which speaks of a period of fifty years. Scholars have been perplexed over this but it would that it is simply a scribal error and of little consequence.
The facts of the matter that the Jonsson hypothesis relies much on Berossus for its Neo-Babylonian chronology and Josephus is the only sourse for Berossus thus any attack on Josephus would threaten the instability of that very chronology. Not very smart, Alan!
Over many year I have studied, examined un much of the criticism of WT chronology form the Jonsson hypothesis and Adventist scholars also I have considered all of the journal articles from scholars relating to his Late Judean period. I have not found a single fact that disproves 607 BCE and our view of the seventy years. That is why I can thoroughly and vigorously defend on this board or any other forum the biblical chronology of the celebrated WT scholars.
Your comments on Russell's and the early Bible Student's eschatology only serves to prove that God was slowly revealing such matters as described in Daniel 12:3-4. So, modern day Bible students walking in those earlier footsteps are proud of their sincere efforts to humbly understand and do the Divine Will.
By means of our methodology and biblical interpretation we know the date of significant biblical dates, scholars including apostates lack that clear and present certainty of matters and that is to their spiritual peril. Yes apostates and higher critics blaim the Bible over their division of 586/587 and yet the celebrated have no such dilemma, using that same very data we have properly determined precisely that the year was 607 BCE. You should hang your head in shame!
1. There is no great scholarly debate over the Return for even Jonsson makes no quiblle over 537.
2. Indeed Jeremiah mentions the nations and those along with Judah would also be dominated by Babylon but their respective servitudes are not detailed as with Judah.
3. In respect of your facile interpretation of Jeremiah 25:12 you do indeed have a choice for Jeremiah states quite clearly that only after the fulfillment of the seventy years, Babylon and its all would experience desolation. That did not happen in 539 as it only fell to a new conqueror also the Jews were still exiles in Babylon until two years after the event and the land remained desolate. Daniel at that tiime statedat that time 539 or soon after that the seventy years had not then been fulfilled- Daniel 9:2. Therefore, the calling to account of Babylon was described as judgement of desolation which was fulfilled over the straits of times.
scholar JW
scholar

Jeffro
Now I know how Jeremiah must have felt when accused of being a liar by those false prohets.
Jeremiah clearly makes reference to Judah with the seventy years as poetically described in 25:9-10. You need to become more familiar with what the text actually and directly says and not read with fuzzy or blurred glasses. Yes those seventy years had severe implications for not just Judah but other nations for during this time of Conquest many nations experience servitude but for Judah it especially heavy with a fixed period of specified exile, specified servitude and specified desolated land. No such specifications in this context are desribed for the nations. Sorry!
Yes at that time of composing that oracle to the exiles the seventy years had not then commenced until all of Judah were to be in exile leaving a desolated land which occurred tens years later in 607 BCE. You should not twist history or engage in historical revisionism you naughty fellow! Such a revelation that the exile would be of a specified duration namely seventy years would be of great comfort to not only those present in exile soon to joined by a much greater number knowing that restoration would soon occur.
By your ignoring Josephus or reducing his comments on the seventy years to that of meaningless, you do him a diservice, you do Berossus a disservice and you undermine not only God;s Word but even your very own chronology based upon Berossus the ancient historian. Silly lad!
In order to sustain your argument of connection between Daniel 5 and Jeremiah 25 I would expect an exegetical link or some connection but none is evident except in your imagination. You must prove the matter and you have not done so. Be snappy, get to it and prove your argument!!!!!! Danile in ch.5 refers only to the imminent Fall of Babylon and not its destruction or desolation which is what Jeremiah describes in ch. 25:12 commencing only after the fulfillment of seventy years and not before. Got it! NOT BEFORE!!!
Yes God's people would have all things progressively revealed as foretold by Daniel in ch.12:3-4 1914 and 607 all saw the fulfillment of prophecy and stand as history a everlasting monument to the truth of God's Word and that of our now reigning King in the Kingdom from 1914.
scholar JW
Jeffro

Now I know how Jeremiah must have felt when accused of being a liar by those false prohets.

Now he's comparing himself to Jeremiah. Sheesh.
Jeremiah clearly makes reference to Judah with the seventy years as poetically described in 25:9-10. You need to become more familiar with what the text actually and directly says and not read with fuzzy or blurred glasses. Yes those seventy years had severe implications for not just Judah but other nations for during this time of Conquest many nations experience servitude but for Judah it especially heavy with a fixed period of specified exile, specified servitude and specified desolated land. No such specifications in this context are desribed for the nations. Sorry!
Jeremiah is talking about "them" and "those" in verses 9-10, and he clearly defines that as "all the nations round about". There is no reference at all to Judah alone specifically being given a period of exile, the period is explicitly defined for nations. Additionally Tyre is explicitly given 70 years, and Egypt is explicitly given 40 years. You are still lying.
Yes at that time of composing that oracle to the exiles the seventy years had not then commenced until all of Judah were to be in exile leaving a desolated land which occurred tens years later in 607 BCE. You should not twist history or engage in historical revisionism you naughty fellow! Such a revelation that the exile would be of a specified duration namely seventy years would be of great comfort to not only those present in exile soon to joined by a much greater number knowing that restoration would soon occur.
What revisionism? There is no logic to either that accusation, or to your bizarre explanation.
By your ignoring Josephus or reducing his comments on the seventy years to that of meaningless, you do him a diservice, you do Berossus a disservice and you undermine not only God;s Word but even your very own chronology based upon Berossus the ancient historian. Silly lad!
Josephus attempts to reconcile the vague 70 years described in the bible with the facts of the 50 years of the temple. Referring to his efforts to deal with the ambiguity is not a disservice at all.
In order to sustain your argument of connection between Daniel 5 and Jeremiah 25 I would expect an exegetical link or some connection but none is evident except in your imagination. You must prove the matter and you have not done so. Be snappy, get to it and prove your argument!!!!!! Danile in ch.5 refers only to the imminent Fall of Babylon and not its destruction or desolation which is what Jeremiah describes in ch. 25:12 commencing only after the fulfillment of seventy years and not before. Got it! NOT BEFORE!!!
That is really funny stuff! You suggest that Daniel 5 refers to only the fall (which is actually the judgement of the king as foretold) and not the complete desolation of Babylon. Babylon wasn't completely desolated in 537 either, so your ludicrous suggestion has no logic.
Yes God's people would have all things progressively revealed as foretold by Daniel in ch.12:3-4 1914 and 607 all saw the fulfillment of prophecy and stand as history a everlasting monument to the truth of God's Word and that of our now reigning King in the Kingdom from 1914.
And your supposed evidence of this event is a war on earth that started before the supposed events happened. You have nothing.
scholar

Jeffro
Indeed, For at least Jeremiah and the cedlebrated are as one in regard to the seventy years.
I disagree that 'them' and 'those' do not apply to Judah for because verse 9 clearly identifies the recipients of Nebuchadnezzer's invasion as Judah. A period of exile is self evident because the land was to be desolate or emptied of people serving Babylon whilst in Babylon for seventy years as confirmed by Jeremiah 29:10.
It is not revisionism but just plain solid history as per the historian Josephus confirms. Nice and easy.
The vague mentionof fifty years is a problem for scholars and lays at the door of a later scribe for it is removed by 5 specific references that the seventy years ran from Fall to Return as exile, servitude and desolation. Nice and easy.
There is nothing funny about Daniel for he was serious and loyal to God's Word as a faithful worshipper of Jehovah, he was not one to get his facts muddled as some posters on this board .do. He foretold not the destruction of Babylon but the Fall of Babylon, Jeremiah foretold the destruction of Babylon which did not occur at 537 nor soon thereafter but was eventually fulfilled along with all the other nations. Nice and easy.
I would think that along with most of the great modern thinkers in the Western World that 1914 was the most significant event in modern history, a fitting reality to the unseen realities that bespoke such a perilous age in which we now find ourselves. Nice and easy.
scholar JW
Kaput

If I have trouble sleeping, I just read this thread, starting at the beginning. It's better than counting sheep cuz I never get past the first page.
ellderwho

As I stated in another thread re: Scholar/Neil Your arguement is still from silience. As is the Towers. Because neither of the aforementioned have a workable kings list.(final product)
So all the banter, really becomes a mute point on Neils behalf because for your chronology to stand there has to be a final product.
You have failed to show a final product. Just like the Towers.
I would take your arguement serious as Im sure others would if you at least had a final product (workable kings list).
Ah but you dont, so why should anyone consider your position.
Isnt it ironic that in the insight volumes and all the WT literature, a workable kings list with years is all over the place with no real laid out diagram showing in plain text for review. Just like you Neil.
NO LIST. IS STILL NO LIST.
scholar

elderwho
You seem to hung up over the king-list but for the purpose of biblical chronology, celebrated WT scholars have deemed such a list as unnecessary and irrelevant as it does not fit into our methodology. However, if it is so important to you why dont't you on the basis of information published by the Society construct your own list and then you will be happy. I wish you well in your project.
As you say in recent publications there is no list for the Babylonian kings presented in tabulated form, the reason for this is because the data is simply unreliable and any dates posted to certain Babylonian kings are determined from our carefully crafted chronology.
scholar JW
Jeffro

Indeed, For at least Jeremiah and the cedlebrated are as one in regard to the seventy years.

If Jeremiah were alive today... well he'd mumble something in some old form of Hebrew that no-one would understand, but most likely it would translate to something like "Man, this Scholar guy is confused."
I disagree that 'them' and 'those' do not apply to Judah for because verse 9 clearly identifies the recipients of Nebuchadnezzer's invasion as Judah. A period of exile is self evident because the land was to be desolate or emptied of people serving Babylon whilst in Babylon for seventy years as confirmed by Jeremiah 29:10.
It doesn't matter whether you disagree. They don't. In verses 8 to 11, all of the references to "them" (except the first, which applies to Babylon) apply to "all the families of the north". Verse 9 includes Judah with "all these nations round about", indicating that because Judah had not repented (verse 7), it would not be exempt, but it is not at all made the focus of the 70 years, which are very clearly indicated by Jeremiah to be a period during which nations would serve Babylon, not a period of exile. Your divergent opinion is irrelevant.
It is not revisionism but just plain solid history as per the historian Josephus confirms. Nice and easy.
('scholar' has decided to end most of the paragraphs in his latest post with "Nice and easy" because I ended some paragraphs with "You are a liar". Not terribly original. Although it is possible that he is referring to his hair dye, "Nice 'n' Easy", a product manufactured by Clairol, a subsidiary of Procter and Gamble.)
The vague mentionof fifty years is a problem for scholars and lays at the door of a later scribe for it is removed by 5 specific references that the seventy years ran from Fall to Return as exile, servitude and desolation. Nice and easy.
"lays at the door of a later scribe"? It is so painful when 'scholar' thinks he is being poetic. The only reference that Josephus makes specifically about the desolation of the temple is the fifty years, and it is consistent with the years of reigns of Babylonian kings as agreed by Josephus. Furthermore, the subheading of the title of Antiquities of the Jews, Book X states: "CONTAINING THE INTERVAL OF ONE HUNDRED AND EIGHTY-TWO YEARS AND A HALF", which covers "FROM THE CAPTIVITY OF THE TEN TRIBES TO THE FIRST YEAR OF CYRUS." This period is precisely consistent with my interpretation, 182 years from Cyrus' first year lining up with the end of the 10-tribe kingdom on my tabulation of the divided Jewish monarchy. There is a discrepancy of an additional 23 years in the Society's interpretation for this period. The facts bear out that Josephus is in agreement with my interpretation.
There is nothing funny about Daniel for he was serious and loyal to God's Word as a faithful worshipper of Jehovah, he was not one to get his facts muddled as some posters on this board .do. He foretold not the destruction of Babylon but the Fall of Babylon, Jeremiah foretold the destruction of Babylon which did not occur at 537 nor soon thereafter but was eventually fulfilled along with all the other nations. Nice and easy.
Your toying with semantics of "fall" and "destruction" are irrelevant. You have previously alleged that the end of the 70 years could not end in 539 because Babylon wasn't completely desolated at that time (though it wasn't completely desolted in 537 either), but your latest statement makes your previous argument irrelevant. The eventual complete devastation has no bearing on the end of the 70 years, but the judgement of its king does, and that restricts the endpoint of the 70 years to 539. Daniel specifically indicated the judgement of Babylon's king, and Jeremiah specifically said that Babylon's king would be judged after the 70 years were fulfilled.
I would think that along with most of the great modern thinkers in the Western World that 1914 was the most significant event in modern history, a fitting reality to the unseen realities that bespoke such a perilous age in which we now find ourselves. Nice and easy.
There you go again trying to arbitrarily claim the entire year of 1914 as being some fulfilment of the Society's flawed interpretations. You just don't seem to get it that the magic date was supposed to be in October, and World War I doesn't fit.
scholar

Jeffro
If Jeremiah were alive today he would preach publicly the wonder of God's organization praising Jehovah and admire how the NWT has made good use of his original prophetic book.
I believe that the focus of ch 25 is Judah as the text clearly indicates that its focus or target is Judah as proven by the opening verses to the chapter.
Josephus gives only one reference to the destruction of the temple alone as fifty years but in all the other refernce to both temple and Jerusalem he gives a period of seventy years from the Fall until the Return. Now it seems that you are adopting Josephian chronology alongside Neo Babylonian chronology but before you jump into the abyss you must realize that both sets of data differ widely and you should read the Dissertation V on the chronology of Josephus before you get too excited.
The complete desolation of the land is at the very heart of the seventy years which is what stumbles scholars because this concept is unbelievable. Jeremiah refers to the fulfillment of the seventy years and this indicates that all that Jeremiah's poetic description of the land must come to pass so it was with the Return in 537 the land was now inhabited. This is the reason why 539 is impossible because it does not meet the requirements of Jeremiah's prophecy. It is not the judgement on a king of Babylon that ends the seventy years but a devastated land becoming re-inhabited.
October 1914 certainly does accommodate World War 1 which began a few months earlier but a little further research in some earlier Watchtowers would help you on this matter but as you are not really interested you can remain in your obstinacy.
scholar JW

Desolation of Jerusalem

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