Was Jesus the Christ even at birth? - not according to the Watchtower

by hooberus 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The watchtower claims that Jesus was not the Christ at his birth but instead that he did not become the Christ until the time of his baptism:

    "Not at birth, but at thirty years of age Jesus became Christ . . . " Things In Which It Is Impossible For God To Lie p. 211

    What does the Bible say:

    "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 1:18

    "And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born." Matthew 2:4

    "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord." Luke 2:11

    "And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law," Luke 2:26-27

    "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;" Romans 1:1-3

    "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." Romans 9:3-5

    "Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10: 1-4

    "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." 1 Timothy 1:15

    Perhaps this is one of the reasons why they reject any celebration of Christmas.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    Hmm...

    What does Christ mean again?

    When and how was Jesus "anointed"?

    What exactly happened at Jesus' baptism / transfiguration / resurrection?

    Does the phrase "President Bush was born on XXX" mean he was President from birth?

    Seems to me you are oversimplifying a complex scriptural issue...

  • stillAwitness
    stillAwitness

    I think hooberus is on to something

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:9-11 The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.

    He was in the world, and the world was created through Him, yet the world did not recognize Him. He came to His own, and His own people did not receive Him.

    John 1:12-14 But to all who did receive Him, He gave them the right to be children of God, to those who believe in His name,

    who were born, not of blood, or of the will of the flesh, or of the will of man, but of God. The Word became flesh and took up residence among us.

    A person either believes or denies Jesus was the Christ at birth. The scriptures tell us who He is and was at birth.

  • Benjamin Belial
    Benjamin Belial

    No no no, you have it all wrong. The scripture says "the word was a god." You need to use the correct translation ;)

    Kidding of course. The word really should be "logos" though.

  • fahrvegnugen
    fahrvegnugen
    The scriptures tell us who He is and was at birth.



    Have any of you ever heard of the Monophysite Controversy? Christians fought and killed each other for centuries because they couldn't agree on the details of what exactly Jesus' "nature" was at birth.

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    ...So when he became the Christ, the anointed, is this when he assumed the identity of Michael the Archangel, receiving Michael's data through a wireless "dove" connection, according to the WTS?

  • FairMind
    FairMind

    Like Narkisso's said it is a complex issue. My understanding would be that techinically Jesus did not become the "Christ" until his baptism when the Holy Spirit descended upon him. Of course Jesus' destiny even prior to baptism was that he become the Christ.

  • blondie
    blondie

    Technically, the WTS teaches that Jesus did not become Christ until his baptism. But what about the promise to Simeon to see the Christ before he died?

    (Luke 2:25-35) 25 And, look! there was a man in Jerusalem named Sim´e·on, and this man was righteous and reverent, waiting for Israel’s consolation, and holy spirit was upon him. 26 Furthermore, it had been divinely revealed to him by the holy spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Christ of Jehovah. 27 Under the power of the spirit he now came into the temple; and as the parents brought the young child Jesus in to do for it according to the customary practice of the law, 28 he himself received it into his arms and blessed God and said: 29 "Now, Sovereign Lord, you are letting your slave go free in peace according to your declaration; 30 because my eyes have seen your means of saving 31 that you have made ready in the sight of all the peoples, 32 a light for removing the veil from the nations and a glory of your people Israel." 33 And its father and mother continued wondering at the things being spoken about it. 34 Also, Sim´e·on blessed them, but said to Mary its mother: "Look! This one is laid for the fall and the rising again of many in Israel and for a sign to be talked against 35 (yes, a long sword will be run through the soul of you yourself), in order that the reasonings of many hearts may be uncovered."

    How the WTS dances around it:

    ***

    it-1 p. 438 Christ ***

    The coming of the Christ, the one whom Jehovah would anoint with his spirit to be the Messianic King, had been foretold centuries before Jesus’ birth. (Da 9:25, 26) However, at his birth, Jesus was not yet the Anointed One or Christ. In foretelling his birth, the angel instructed Joseph: "You must call his name Jesus." (Mt 1:21) But when the shepherds near Bethlehem were given the angelic announcement, in anticipation of Jesus’ future role they were told: "There was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord," that is, "who is to be Christ the Lord."—Lu 2:11, ftn.

    ***

    it-1 p. 438 Christ ***

    But when the shepherds near Bethlehem were given the angelic announcement, in anticipation of Jesus’ future role they were told: "There was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord," that is, "who is to be Christ the Lord."—Lu 2:11, ftn.

    ***

    w71 4/15 p. 241 How "Restoration of All Things" Is Made ***

    When God sent his only-begotten Son from heaven, he was born into the family of King David and was given the name Jesus, the name meaning "Jehovah Is Salvation." Thereby Jesus was an heir to the throne of King David. (Matthew 1:1 to 2:6; Luke 3:23-31) Even an angel from heaven declared that Jesus was the Christ or Messiah. On the night of his birth in Bethlehem, this angel from Jehovah said to God-fearing shepherds: "Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city."—Luke 2:8-11.

    ***

    w70 10/15 p. 622 Saving the Human Race—in the Kingdom Way ***

    21

    "Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city. And this is a sign for you: you will find an infant bound in cloth bands and lying in a manger."—Luke 2:1-12.

    22

    There we have the statement of the divine purpose: This newborn Jesus was to become the Messiah or Christ, One anointed to the kingship just as his forefather David had been anointed to the kingship over God’s chosen people.

    *** w65 10/15 p. 618 World Government on the Shoulder of the Prince of Peace ***

    The angel identified who the child really was and told what his future was to be by saying: "For, this day, is born to you a Saviour, who is Christ the Lord, in the city of David.

    *** it-2 p. 59 Jesus Christ ***

    The outpouring of holy spirit at the time of Jesus’ baptism marked the time of his becoming in actual fact the Messiah, or Christ, God’s Anointed One (the use of this title by angels when announcing his birth evidently being in a prophetic sense; Lu 2:9-11, note also vss 25, 26).

    *** it-2 p. 440 Moses ***

    According to the angel’s announcement at his birth in Bethlehem, he was to become "a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." He became Christ, or Anointed One, after the prophet John baptized him in the Jordan River. (Lu 2:10, 11; 3:21-23; 4:16-21) Thereafter he acknowledged that he was "the Christ," or Messiah. (Mt 16:16, 17; Mr 14:61, 62; Joh 4:25, 26)

    *** w52 8/1 p. 466 The Miracle of the Transfiguration ***

    At the actual time of the birth of the son, Jehovah’s angel was sent to announce it to the country shepherds. "And suddenly Jehovah’s angel stood by them and Jehovah’s glory gleamed around them, and they became very fearful. But the angel said to them: ‘Have no fear, for, look! I am declaring to you good news of a great joy that all the people will have, because there was born to you today a Savior, who is Christ the Lord, in David’s city.’" (Luke 2:9-11, NW) Then we have on record the testimony of Simeon: "He would not see death before he had seen the Christ of Jehovah. . . . ‘This one is laid for the fall and the rising again of many in Israel and for a sign to be talked against.’" (Luke 2:26, 34, NW)

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    I guess what I'm driving at is that the WTS goes even further, implying that Jesus was not even the Logos at birth.

    The WTS maintains that Jesus did not remember his prehuman existence until baptism, when "the heavens opened up to him".

    The WTS maintains that God's son, a "spirit creature" known as Michael the Archangel willed himself out of existence before Jesus the man was conceived on earth.

    The WTS maintains that a man consists of a physical body, animated by the "breath" of life. A person's identity consists of simply of the person's thoughts and memories. (which is another long topic to discuss in itself)

    So essentially, the "identity" of Michael the Archangel was not transferred to Jesus the man until baptism. So before baptism, Jesus could not have been the Logos. Just a divinely conceived man.

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