Okay, I'd like to invite some comments about this, particulary from those of you who don't believe or follow what the WTBTS teaches, yet on the other hand have made comments regarding the Witnesses such as:
1. "but if it makes you happy..."
2. "...more power to you..."
3. "...it's your choice..."
4. "...I have no right to tell someone else what is right for them..."
5. "...maybe some people can't survive without it..."
etc.
Some of these are very good words to live by for life in general. But I would like to stimulate some rational thought on these cliches regarding the body of beliefs and way of life represented by Jehovah's Witnesses. If you read my posts here so far you know the feeling that I have for individual members still trapped inside, and my refusal to hate the GB as they hate me. But in reply to the above statements that I keep hearing, I would like to respond:
1. NO ONE who is one of Jehovah's Witnesses is able to know what it means to be free or happy until they leave. Only then do they have a chance to live a life of their own choosing. Only those of us most involved who had convinced ourselves we were happy inside truly understand how that is so.
2. Why do you wish more power to someone who devotes their life to promoting a teaching that strips people of one of their most basic rights, freedom of thought? Do you not realize that the more people support the Org, the more unsuspecting, ignorant people will become victims of their system?
3. Believing something because you were subjected to a sustained, calculated system of indocrination without your knowledge of what was happening...does this count as a choice? What about the children who will fall victim to it, either members' own children or those receiving home bible studies? When their suggestible minds are subjected to this treatment, is it a freely chosen belief? Do you realize this is anethema to the most basic principles of human freedom by any interpretation?
4. If you are familiar with the beliefs or indocrination process, do you at least feel confident that it is very harmful to any person who allows themselves to come under that control? If not how could you rationalize it as being "not as wrong for some people"?
5. Are you aware of how many hardcore, unquestioning members have left and found more freedom and peace in their lives than they ever knew was possible? What leads you to conclude that any person does not have the inner strength necessary to escape from such an self-hating lifestyle and find peace? I think we need to give these individuals a little more credit.
Calling All Apologists/Sympathizers
by Sentient 11 Replies latest jw friends
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Sentient
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Sparkplug
MAybe I am not the one to start a response to this. But I have an opinion.
I ageree with what you have written and it is not an all black and white world. My mom is an inactive JW. She is old, frail, and at her end. She has dymentia now, and more than likely will never denounce her faith. The most I can hope is that she stays inactive.
I give her credit for not going to meetings, but at her age to actually realize what harm she has caused us kids to go through by being part of the JW's, well I don't wish that kind of pain on her. I am sure somewhere in her she knows. But it is like her illness. For her to realize that she has tortured her family and loved ones for 10 years now with made up worms coming through her skin, that she has ruined her face and body and pulled her own flesh off of her body in an attempt to remove something that is not there, well I think she is a very strong woman, but I don't think she can face the reality and the outside world out of the Borg completely. She really cant take anymore. So I don't try to convince her, and I hope I make her last years as happy as they can be.
She has lost her kids, her husbands, and her life was led by a lie...we should all hope that some can get out, maybe that everywhere, everone, will awake and be free, but as with any state of transition, there would be some tragedies. Not all people are that strong.
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Sentient
I understand what you're saying in your mother's case Sparkplug. There are always exceptions, and especially very near the end of life and without even the ability to make the change, it probably would do more harm than good. Then it's just a case of human compassion not to make someone suffer more than they already have. But the vast majority of the time, that is not the case and there is the ability to change. I think what a Witness most needs in that situation is for someone outside who cares to truly believe in them, and not to assume that they need the Org to survive.
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yaddayadda
I believe in God and Christ, yet I don't think there is any one true organised religion on earth today. I'm what you'd call a 'Christian agnostic'. I believe in Christianity but I don't believe it is possible to prove that any one group has it right. They all have varying degrees of truth and falsehood. So from a pragmatic viewpoint if you want to associate with an organised religion you may as well just take what you want from it and discard the rest. For the majority of JW's, they have grown up in their religion and have vast social and familial networks that are just too much to give away if they leave. The emotional cost is too high. So if they are not feeling unduly bothered by other things in their religion (eg, high control, false beliefs, burdensome programme of works), then what the heck they may as well just stay and enjoy whatever good they can. Same with any other religion.
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Sentient
I disagree, yaddayadda. Being true to yourself and being able to finally respect yourself and feel good about yourself is worth any supposedly "too high" emotional cost that it takes to get there. The tragedy is not the high emotional cost of leaving but the higher emotional cost of the bondage of staying. And again, it isn't just about them, it's also about the people they will keep sucking in and hurting by perpetuating the viscious cycle for as long as they do. There are degrees of control, and in this case we are not talking about just "any other religion".
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anewme
Humans seek comfort, both physically and spiritually.
If you were sleepy and you had a choice between the ground and a mattress, you would choose the mattress.
Humans like comfort.
Spiritually humans need comfort as well. And this need differs with each individual.
If the witnesses came to my door and I was living with Ben Affleck, the sound of the good news might not seem so good to me.
If I was a 9/11 survivor and lost dear loved ones and my own health in that awful disaster I might listen with interest in a hope for the future and answers why their is increased violence on the earth.
I think we cant in all humble honesty say all worshippers of any religion are stupid or blind or brainwashed. You cannot appeal to humans by shaming them for it or humiliating them for their faith.
Patiently assisting them to change their thinking by offering them something better is the only way.
Setting a good example yourself in godliness and happiness is another way to persuade them to your views. -
Mysterious
While I don't post the type of phrases you have outlined myself I would also not necessarily call someone an apologist or a sympathizer for doing so. Look at it this way. If you tell someone it is their choice they are going to see you as rational and listen to what you have to say far more than if you tell them they are horribly brainwashed and must disown everything they hold dear immediately. I think some say these things in order to be the voice of rational logic and reason that some still in the grips of the organization need in order to start thinking about their situation instead of reacting to what they have been told apostates are like.
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darkuncle29
To use an old Bhuddist expresion, "We will stop suffering when we choose to stop suffering."
Some people believe that to be just a state of mind, I prefer to think of it as an awareness of where I am and how I got here. ie, if I go to the KH, its because I chose to go. I may have made that choice based on limited or bad information, but the choice was still mine to take action on.
In a situation with victims of abuse, (and I'm just working on this idea, its not absolute) I don't think its the fault of the victim, as the victimizer is the one who took the opportunity and chose to make them their victim, but I have to wonder, if in some instances, does the victim bear any responsibility for what happened to them? If they chose to be at a certain place at a certain time, or even just in a certain situation...?
If I go walking in downtown Tacoma Washington in an Armani suit in the middle of night, and I am approached by a group of strangers who are loud and obnoxious, then should I really feel indignant and surprised if I get mugged and beaten up?
No human being deserves to get abused, but if I don't take responsibility for my own safety, then I'm a fool.
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A former poster to the board (Farkle?) used to say often, "Arguing with an idiot makes you an idiot, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." or something similiar.
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Yes, its sad that people get trapped in organizations like this, but there is not alot you can do about it. You can't/must not force them, as that just makes it worse for them. To really help people, takes them on some level really wanting help. In cult-ish scenarios, a very deft and patient, almost cunning attitude is also needed on the part of the one who is trying to help.
I'm saying most of this badly, but I think you might get my intent. Sorry I'm rambling and its late, Good night.
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Sentient
anewme- Humans seek comfort, different people need different levels of comfort.
I agree with that.
People who are emotionally devastated are far more likely to be persuaded by a Witness than someone who is in relative peace and contentment with Ben Affleck.
I agree with that too (provided Ben Affleck doesn't break you heart).
But I can in all humble honesty say that it is not in the best interests of anyone to be converted to this group and that every single Jehovah's Witness is blind to what has happened to them...if they weren't they would not continue with the group, or would certainly be in great emotional turmoil once they realize what is really going on. Their IQ is not at issue here. You can call it brainwashing but if that prevents someone from listening then call it something else less offensive. Whatever you call it, the result of it is the same.
I also concur that trying to shame an individual or make them feel humiliated for being a Witness will not assist them in leaving but will drive them away from you. But we can explain the shamefulness (shameful because it creates shame to control) and the harmfulness of an abusive system of belief and action, comparing it with a healthier view or way of living. Patience and tact is needed to do this with a believer, but for a nonbeliever to minimize the real and harmful aspects of the system itself is counterproductive to helping such ones. I give anyone who does minimize it the benefit of the doubt that they do not fully understand the psychology of the system itself, and that is why I invite them to a rational discussion here.
Mysterious- see my comments to anewme above. Of course I am not advocating accosting Witnesses in a rage yelling, "YOU ARE BRAINWASHED AND YOU MUST DISOWN EVERYTHING YOU HOLD DEAR IMMEDIATELY!" or "FREE YOUR MIND YOU ARE CONTROLLED!" That would not have worked on me then, and it will not work for any of them now. You do have to keep in mind your audience when communicating with anyone. Here in this thread, my intended audience is not necessarily believers but those who have knowledge of JWs but do not believe. Of all people in the world, you are the ones with the greatest potential influence over current JWs. Please point out anything irrational or inaccurate in what I am saying, or any actions I have advocated that you think will not be helpful. My intent is to heal, not to hurt.
darkuncle29- True, we could probably say you are fool for wearing the Armani in the middle of the night and getting mugged. For your part, after having realized your mistake or your foolishness, you would use that experience to be wiser in the future. Still, if a person had compassion for you they would focus not on your foolishness but on the violence of those who mugged you.
Here though we're talking about something a *lot* more complex than that analogy can describe. I don't think lacking common sense or having a low intelligence quotient is a requisite for being drawn into this organization. This is a misconception. People become Jehovah's Witnesses (and members of other highly controlling groups) not because all the beliefs appeal to them but because of the *technological process* used to psychologically manipulate them into accepting all the doctrines and rules until eventually they are in essence slaves of the organization. Those raised in it usually return to it because of the effectiveness of this process of fear and guilt implantation.
Knowing what I know now, if I were a person of ill intent I could construct an entirely different set of doctrine and using this process, form my own highly controlling organization of servants who see me as god's mouthpiece and distribute literature for me. I could easily find enough vulnerable people to form my core of loyal followers. It is sick really, to have this degree of control over another human being. The video Randy has up on his site satirically nails it on the head and exposes some of these techniques for what they are. This type of system comes in many different brands and flavors, but the objective and result is the same. IMO it is not spirituality, it is sickness when it becomes like this. Some have called it "spiritual rape", and I understand why. Look beyond the shadows cast to see what cast the shadows.
http://www.randytv.com/coreylan.html
For me, I assume that every Witness would choose freedom if they really understood what happened to them rather than assume that there is just inherently something wrong with them or they just wouldn't want help even if I tried to help them. Patiently penetrating their group-imposed psychological defenses enough to get them to understand that is the tricky part. They do have to *allow* that to happen, but I think we have a greater influence on whether or not they allow it than we realize.
Deft, patience and cunning...I suppose so. Also, understanding, respect and love. It takes a lot in a person to get through to a hardcore Witness just enough to get the wheels of free thought turning.
"Man's mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions." -Oliver Wendell Holmes -
ontarget
People need to know that if they leave the witnesses they will have support from others that have gone through the same or similar difficulties. However, timing is everything. If someone is not ready emotionally, physically or financially to leave their family (parents, children, mates, brothers and sisters, aunts, uncles and cousins), friends, home and many times their job or career then you could be leading them down a road of despair and suicide by advising them to leave before they are ready.