I have a Question?

by Third Eye Open 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

Honesty

Welcome to the board, 3rd Eye Open
Not to many. And that is because the trinity-doctrine is the best overall interpretation of the Bible on the issue of Gods nature, and the relationship between God, Jesus and the holy Spirit. But for some reason, most ex-JWs can`t swallow or understand this doctrine. (ok, so now you can unleash hell on me...)
Y'all might as well unleash it on me, too.
When I asked God to forgive me for my years of idolatrous worship of the Faithful Discreet Slave the first WTBT$ Lie the Holy Spirit overthrew was their antichrist doctrine against the three in one God concept. Since then He has taught me much about how the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit has testified to mankind since the rebellion in Eden.
The Jehovah's Witness cult concentrates so much time and energy on 'Why' rather than on 'What'. That is how they initially attract unsuspecting people.
"Why do you think God has allowed so much suffering to continue for so long?"
"Why do you think Jesus resurrected people when he was on earth?"
"Why are there so many different denominations in Christendom?"
If the individual JW is so interested in serving Jesus then they should ask Him, "What do you want me to do?" instead of relying on an organisation that has usurped His position and authority.
For proof the WTBT$ has stolen Jesus' authority and position read the following WT Quotes:
WATCHTOWER June 15, 1978
Page 370 Paragraph 7
Page 375 Paragraph 21
Oroborus21

Hey Third Eye,
You might ask the Elder whether you would be permitted to only believe the CORE doctrines that you accept and whether you would be further permitted to speak freely to other Witnesses and the public about the other teachings that you don't accept and why. Ask whether you would be allowed to share printed information not just with the public in the ministry about the core doctrines that you accept but also with your fellow friends and Witnesses about the UN controversy, alternative viewpoints on Blood, 1914, the FDS doctrine, etc. etc.
Explain that you in no way are interested in creating a sect or schism among the congregation but believe that it is vitally important to be completely free to share your own thoughts about the scriptures and your ideas in the marketplace of ideas without fear of punishment or censure. Even if these are wrong ideas or you are mistaken, that keeping your independence is the only way that you could in good conscience participate and agree to to preach and teach others about the beliefs that you have come to accept through your study with Jehovah's Witnesses.
Finally, in the bizarre and extremely unlikely chance that the Elder does express that you would be permitted to do the above. Ask for a written statement signed by him to the effect that in the event you become a baptized Witness you will not be disfellowshipped for sharing your views or any information along the above lines.
My guess is that after your asking your questions, the Elder will be less enthusiastic about pressuring you to join.
-Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.
Forscher

Welcome to the board Third eye.
In answer to your question, yes, there are several groups that fit the profile and they were mentioned here. The Mormons don't believe in a trinity, but be careful, they are a very controlling group like the Witnesses.

The Bible Students, who follow Russell's writings to various degrees, come in a number of varieties. The Dawn Bible Students left the organization about the time that that it took the name Jehovah's Witnesses. They were fed up and tired with Rutherford's obsession with control. They retained some of his changes in doctrines, but are not quite as controlling as the JWs. I've seen some folks jokingly refer to them as Watchtower Lite!

The Laymen's Home Missionary Movement were those who followed P. Johnson when the big split occured in 1917-18. They added a multi-volume work authored by Johnson (The Epiphanies) to the Studies In The Scriptures as authoritative in their view. The Associated Bible Students are the other major group and they basically consider the body of CTR's writings alone as authoritative. Those are the three major groups and you will have no finding sites by them all if you Google "Bible Students". I have some contact with the bible Students and can give you the address of a forum that I like. Just PM me if you like.

The Christadelphians hold many beliefs that are simliar to the Bible Students. I've had discussions with several of them, and they tell me that they prefer to use the Bible alone as a text. They have one interesting quirck, they don't believe that the Devil is a particular fallen angel. I reckon to each his own!

The Unitarians also don't believe in the trinity doctrine. You might be interested to know that one of the board of directors who went to prison with Rutherford later left the organization and became a Unitarian. The publishing house he joined is still around and puts out an exellent interlinear Bible program that's a freebie. It's called the International Scripture Analyzer, and I recommend it highly.

Several other groups used to be nontrinitarian. the Seventh Day Adventists and the World Wide Church of God. Alas, they both adopted it in a bid for mainstream acceptance. I don't know whether the Second Adventists are still antitrinitarian, that was the group that CTR was associated with before he and Barbour split.

There you have it! Have fun!

Forscher
jeanniebeanz

Everyone has pretty well sewed it up, but... just wanted to say Welcome to the board, Third Eye.
Jean
Third Eye Open

Thank you everybody for your responses, I really appreciate it!!

Sadly I am baptized, and was raised in this organization. My dad was an elder for 17 years. (Last two where as PO) My parents split back in 99 and that is when the door opened up for my brother. He learned everything he could have and then went off to college and finished his degree. He hates this cult more than anything!! But when I was younger I didn't really listen to what he had to say, wish I did. I was just like everybody else, I knew this was "the truth" and didn't really give much thought to what he told me.

Sadly I got baptized when I was 16, I didn't know crap, but of course they still baptized me. Hell they will baptize 9 year olds just to make sure there stuck in this cult. Anyway I finally reached rock bottom when I was 19 and had too many questions. My brother gave me the quotes website and Ray Franz CC, that was a year ago. Anyway, All of my questions where answered using so called "apostasy material" in the end it was WTBTS litature, and I have been soo much happier knowing the real truth.

I am still going to meetings because I have not built up the courage to just walk away (I have no friends on the outside and am just financially not able to live on my own if all came down to me leaving). At the longest it will be the summer/fall of 2007 when I leave because then I will have my degree and I can just get a job, move and never be seen again.

I met with the elder tonight and he couldn't prove 607, obviously. But told me I need to read the insight book again. And told me to stop reading apostate litature. I told him it was all WTBTS litature and he just ignored it and told me to study more.

It really pisses me off; he had no humility in him. He barely listened to what I had to say. Just quickly shrugged it off and went back to the first century Christians.

In the end it doesn't matter, I know the real truth and have never been happier. (Well I will be happier once I am no longer apart of it) I just went there to please my mom but I also was very humble. If he could prove me wrong on all the 607, 1874, the UN, Rutherford entire presidency, then I would faithfully repent get df'd and come back as a pioneer and go to bethel. But we all know that's not possible so he can eat it.

Knowledge is a wonderful thing, no one or group will convince me otherwise!!

Thank you soo much for your post, again I really appreciate it!!
FSMonster

Amen!
I really loved your opinion on Bible in general, it really IS a load of crap (no offense to nobody intended).
But even if it ain't crap, Watchtower literally butchered the Bible with its own 'translation', if we can even call it that. You should've asked the elder why is the name 'Jehovah' inserted in the New Testament (WT New World Translation) where it doesn't even exist. Even the big green book the elder recommended to you confirms it! The explanation is something about error in the originals, bullshit.
As for trinity, I don't like the idea but you know, from the Bible, you can argue either side easily. I'm not a believer but this website has a pretty good article that would, if I were a believer, easily convince me into accepting trinity: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-r005.html
These arguments are just as good if not better than WT. Btw, you don't have to really forsake spirituality, but don't let any religion imprison your mind.
Good Luck.
cyberdyne systems 101

Interestingly on the point of inserting the name Jehovah in the new testament or christian greek scriptures as they refer to them, they say that the the original text was changed (makes you wonder what else is too??) And that no two copies are the same. Although the name itself is not known and therefore how can one include it, there are some old testament quotes where the name would have appeared and so I agree with the argument to replace god and lord in those instances but to what? To this name Jehovah they have adopted or perhaps the hebrew letters?
In either case having just read this portion of the bible over christmas for the first time in a complete sense without their bias, it seems to me to be written for that time only, there doesnt seem to me to be any indication of anything beyond the destruction of the temple, indeed never was anyone told to translate it, if it was supposed to be then surely inspired writters would have to have done this work.
Arnie
JustTickledPink

I was baptized at 11 yoa, then pioneered while being home schooled and I believed in it all 110%. I was the perfect little JW. But I too had an older sister. She was not living at home, had gotten her college degree and always tried to tell me but I dismissed her. I really didn't want to hear what she had to say. Honestly it was years before I could even think of listening to her.
But around 18-19 yoa the organization, not it's teachings, really turned me off. The lack of love, the lack of support, the cliques, the people all pissed me off. My mother was really sick and no one cared. The only thing people did was continue to knock on doors, they just didn't care at all about us. That was my turning point. I quit it all but it took several more years before I actually did the research needed to answer my own questions. Once I did there has been no turning back.
I applaud you for actually doing your own investigations. I'm 31 and have a REAL life. Married with a house, friends, have a great time in life, nice job, education and most of all I carry around no guilt, no baggage, and have no judgemental critics following me around nit-picking my life and whether my skirt is long enough or I comment enough at meetings.
Check_Your_Premises

There are many religions that have very similar teachings in terms of Christology (who is/was Jesus?) and eschatology (how is the whole end of the world thing going to play out?).
The Christadelphians share all of their views on Jesus, the trinity, hell not being hot, and eternity on paradise earth. They even believed all this stuff in 1919, but for some reason Jesus liked the JW's better because they were offering up BETTER spiritual food... like that he returned in 1874. They are pretty legalistic from what I understand, but they are not a cult as far as I know.
The Worldwide Church of God used to believe almost identically as the JW on all these IMPORTANT teachings. Except their "faithful and discreet slave" was Herbert Armstrong. Except he didn't claim to fulfill TFDS "prophecy". He claimed to be the Elijah who would return that was spoken of in Micah. What makes this group SOOOOO fascinating is that after the death of Armstrong the leadership withdrew their claim of divine appointment, and even came into orthodox teachings. There is a video they put out that tells their story "Called to be Free". Randy sells it at freeminds.org. Also be sure to go to www.wcg.org. You can get a free subscription of The Plain Truth. It is pretty much anti-cult, anti-legalism, anti-religion all the time. It is subtitled, "Christianity Without the Religion". It is real fun to watch the look on the face of your dub loved ones when they read some of the article names.
There are several break off groups of the Worldwide Church of God that still adhere to Armstrongs teachings. The funniest is www.thercg.org and there is one that has a tv show (they must be from God, they have a TV SHOW!!! The JW don't have a tv show!!!) www.tomorrowsworld.org
The Iglesia Ni Cristo is a little known but VERY large group out of the Phillipines. Their beliefs on Christology and eschatology are similar to the JW.
There is a real kooky group that uses God's divine name called the Nation of Yahweh. They are headed up by a guy named Yahweh bin Yahweh who claims to be the messiah. He is in prison right now. They have a REALLY funny tv show. Another sacred name group is the House of Yahweh. They are headed up by a guy who claims that he and his brother are the two prophets spoken of in Revelation.
It is kind of funny. The more a group tries to make themselves out to be God's representative, the more they need to play down Jesus. It is also funny that someone could read the Bible and just decide that some verse is prophesying about them. I mean how could you seperate your desire for that to be true from your ability to honestly interpret such a verse. Silly.
CYP
peacefulpete

Welcome from my wife and I. Their programmed response telling you to study more was classic. For us it was our deligent study habits that compelled us out. My wife took a couple years longer but eventually she disclosed to me that she was no longer able to open the bible and read without bells going off. When she told an Elder that when she read the Bible reading she was left with greater doubts about the Bible, she was told to avoid these areas and just read the Gospels, she replied that she also found the Gospels contradictory, he encouraged her to simply pray more then. It all comes down to finding a way to suppress critical thinking. For many reading the same story over and over (like the Gospels) has that effect. It wasn't working for her and she saw it for what it was.

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