Ecclesiastes 12:12 (NWT) ~ As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion to them is wearisome to the flesh.
Somehow, I think the WTS missed that scripture all together.
Scriptures to make a JW think?
by AlmostAtheist 37 Replies latest jw friends
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LittleToe
Cyberdyne:That's how they explain it, only they call the 144,000 "spiritual Israelites" ("Anointed" from every tribe and nation), and make those left (effectively "spiritual gentiles", though they don't use that term) a distinct class with a different destination.
I interpret the Revelation passage as them being exactly the same group. John hears the symbolic number of 144k, then sees a great crowd. But, each to their own.
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AK - Jeff
A pair of them, Dave, that I borrow from page 73 or Nate's book, Jehovah Unmasked.
"And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel" 1 Chronicles 21:1
"And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah." 2 Samuel 24:1
Same event. One attributes the provocation to Satan. The other to Jehovah.
Of course, Nate's book is trying to make one point here. You another.
But this would have made me think if I was in the right frame of mind when I considered it as a JW. Never was really cause I knew these two scriptures were at odds.
Jeff
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AK - Jeff
And in response one of the elders said to me: "These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" So right away I said to him: "My lord, you are the one that knows." And he said to me: "These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them Revelation 7:13-15 NWT
The rendering in their own Kingdom Interlinear for the portion in red;
"And they are rendering sacred service to him of day and of night in the divine habitation of Him."
That should make them think -
Jeff
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atypical
Here's one that has been on my mind lately.
Matthew 15:3-9:
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In reply he said to them: "Why is it YOU also overstep the commandment of God because of YOUR tradition? 4 For example, God said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘Let him that reviles father or mother end up in death.’ 5 But YOU say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother: "Whatever I have by which you might get benefit from me is a gift dedicated to God," 6 he must not honor his father at all.’ And so YOU have made the word of God invalid because of YOUR tradition. 7 YOU hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU, when he said, 8 ‘This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. 9 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’"I keep thinking of this scripture whenever I have a discussion with someone about petty rules like the no beard thing, or writing hours on a little slip of paper, or the judicial process and reinstatement.
Also, AlmostAtheist - In my opinion, I would use the NWT whenever possible if you want to reason with a jw. Even if another translation may make the point better, it would be to easy for the jw to blame it on the fact that you are using another translation. Use their tactics; the NWT can be a common ground. It seems to me that even using that bible there are a multitude of scriptures that can make a jw think.
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jaffacake
For me I know Jesus mentioned he had other sheep not of this fold and that the two would become one flock, so I wonder if the 144,000 and the great crowd are these two that become one and are they the natural jews and the gentiles? Thats how I understood it when reading it. Opinions please...
Arnie
The words of Jesus, the good shepherd, at John 10:16 about the “other sheep” seem to have a parallel at Ephesians 2:11–18. All the elements from John are also in Ephesians, but without the shepherd analogy. There are two kinds of believers (or sheep) Jews & gentiles; there is the good news (instead of the voice of the shepherd, Christ). Through Christ, the peoples were made into one body (one flock) under him as their head (their one shepherd). Both passages are about two types of people (or sheep where the parable uses a shepherd & sheep analogy).
I may be wrong, and do not claim access to any special knowledge nor to any earthly organisation with special knowledge, but I humbly believe that it seems likely that both John & Ephesians are continuing a crucial theme running throughout Scriptures, from the time of God’s promise to Abraham (see Genesis, Psalms, Isaiah, Amos, Acts, Galatians). There were many prophecies of the time when God would join people of all nations into one people under his Messiah. There seems no need for complicated modern arguments to explain John 10:16 when 2,000 years ago, and still today, there appears to be such harmony with Scriptures and prophecy. Don’t you think that after all the prophecies about the entry of gentiles into unity with Jewish believers, it would be amazing if Jesus had not given a parable about such an important issue? I don’t claim to be right on this but it seems more consistent with Christ’s teachings than him advocating what sounds to me like two classes of Christians.
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jaffacake
(Matthew 25:37-46) . . .Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?’ 40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’ 41 "Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.’ 44 Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to YOU, To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life."
It is clear to me that Christ was talking of charity, kindness and love being offered to all, not just congregation members - to these the least of my brothers...I don't know how JWs can possibly square this scripture with what they teach.
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jaffacake
Maybe looking up scriptures themselves in the NWT will make them think, for example a JW friend of mine struggled to give the correct answers...I wonder why:
The Bible alone (ideally the
Some answers may seem quite easy for Christians well versed in scriptures and don’t worry if some answers are repeated.
Question1. Whose WITNESSES should we be throughout the whole world?
Answer …………………………………………………………..(see Acts 1:8)
Question 2a Whose WITNESSES must we be?
Question 2b Bearing WITNESS to which NAME inspires ALL prophesying?
Answers …a……………………………………………………………………………. (see Rev 19:10)
b………………………………………………………………………. (see Rev 19:10)
Question 3. Whose word must be observed if we are never to see death at all?
Answer ……………………………………………………….(see John 8:51)
Question 4. Whose NAME allows us to have eternal life?
Answer: ……………………………………………………………………………. (see John 20:31)
A harder question
Question 5. How did Christ describe the type of men we must NOT follow? What kind of things will they say?
Answer …………………………………………………………………………………………….
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………… (see Luke 21:8)
Another tough one
Question 6. After his death, when did Christ's presence start and when will it end?
Answer ………………………………………………………………………………………
………………………………………………………………………………………………………… (see Matthew 28:20)
Getting a bit personal now
Question 7. Are you spirit begotton, YES or NO?
Answer: ……………………………….
If not, can you still be a Christian and belong to Christ? YES or NO?
Answer: ………………………………………………………………………….…… (see Romans 8:9)
Question 8. Whose word is truth and will set you free?
Answer ……………………………………………………………………………. (see John 8:31,32)
Just for good measure
Question 9. Who is it that sets us free?
Answer: ………………………………………………………………………………. (see John 8:36)
Thank You. Please feel free to test your answers against the Christian Scriptures, preferably the Translation.
‘Lovers of the Truth’