by AlmostAtheist 37 Replies latest jw friends
Interesting point, Ellie. That really might get someone thinking.
Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in the heavens.
Matthew 22:30 for in the resurrection neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in heaven.
AuldSoul
The bereans were commended of double-checking Paul's message before accepting it. Acts 17:11. What would Paul have done if they had found him in error?
That example unfortunately has been deliberately corrupted by the Watchtower. Blondie might have a reference on it, I sure don't. But they explained that the wise bereans were not "checking to see if Paul was right" (which they obviously were) but were instead reading the verses themselves to more fully inculcate it into their hearts, and allow them to share it with others using the authority of God's word.
It's a great verse to show the need to get biblical proof before accepting a biblical point, but they've more-or-less shot it down. (Can't blame 'em, it's damning)
What does everybody think about translation choice here? NWT since it's familiar, or something else for the same reason? NIV?
Thanks!
Dave
This is the only time the WTS applies Acts 17:10,11 this way, just after the Brookyln Bethel Purge of 1980-1981.
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w81 2/15 pp. 18-19 Do We Need Help to Understand the Bible? ***A
NOBLE-MINDED VIEWHow shall we view the spiritual food provided by this "faithful and discreet slave"? Should it be viewed critically—‘Oh, well, it might be true but then again it might not be and so we have to scrutinize it very critically’? Some apparently have felt that way about it. To support their way of thinking they have quoted Acts 17:11, which says of newly interested persons at Beroea: "Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so."
But does this mean that those Beroeans were looking for flaws in the message they were hearing, or that their attitude was one of doubting? Does this set a precedent for regarding critically the publications brought forth by the "faithful and discreet slave," with a view to finding fault? Not at all!
First of all, let us note the setting of the statement about the noble-minded Beroeans. Paul, accompanied by Silas, was on his second missionary tour. Due to persecution that arose, the brothers at Thessalonica sent them on to Beroea. In Beroea they met sincere Jews who had strong faith in God’s Word. These were not Christians yet. They were simply interested persons who had to satisfy themselves that what Paul was telling them had the support of the Hebrew Scriptures.
Up to this time, these devout Jews in Beroea may never have heard of Jesus Christ. What Paul was telling them was entirely new. So those noble-minded Jews in Beroea searched the Scriptures daily to make certain that the references that Paul gave were really part of God’s Word. And with what mental attitude did they pursue their studies? With a skeptical attitude, trying to prove Paul wrong? No, they were altogether unlike Paul’s critics on Mars Hill, for we read that they heard Paul’s testimony with "the greatest eagerness of mind."—Acts 17:11, 32.
These Beroeans listened with a readiness, yes, an eagerness, to believe. Thus not only were they open-minded, but they were wanting to have this "good news" proved true. In fact, for a person to acquire faith he must have "the will to believe." If he is determined not to believe, then no amount of evidence will convince him; for if a person looks for them he can always find excuses, plausible reasons for not accepting the accountability that belief will bring upon him. As the apostle Paul well said: "Faith is not a possession of all people." (2 Thess. 3:2) But the Beroeans had the will to believe. They considered what they heard with a receptive frame of mind. As a result, "many of them became believers, and so did not a few of the reputable Greek women and of the men."—Acts 17:12.
Jesus’ disciples wrote many letters to Christian congregations, to persons who were already in "the way of the truth." (2 Pet. 2:2) But nowhere do we read that those brothers first, in a skeptical frame of mind, checked the Scriptures to make certain that those letters had Scriptural backing, that the writers really knew what they were talking about.
OUR
VIEW OF THE "SLAVE"We can benefit from this consideration. If we have once established what instrument God is using as his "slave" to dispense spiritual food to his people, surely Jehovah is not pleased if we receive that food as though it might contain something harmful. We should have confidence in the channel God is using. At the Brooklyn headquarters from which the Bible publications of Jehovah’s Witnesses emanate there are more mature Christian elders, both of the "remnant" and of the "other sheep," than anywhere else upon earth.
True, the brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18) However, this has resulted in a continual refining of the body of Bible-based truth to which Jehovah’s Witnesses subscribe. Over the years, as adjustments have been made to that body of truth, it has become ever more wonderful and applicable to our lives in these "last days." Bible commentators of Christendom are not inspired either. Despite their claims to great knowledge, they have failed to highlight even basic Bible truths—such as the coming Paradise earth, the importance of God’s name, and the condition of the dead.
Rather, the record that the "faithful and discreet slave" organization has made for the past more than 100 years forces us to the conclusion that Peter expressed when Jesus asked if his apostles also wanted to leave him, namely, "Whom shall we go away to?" (John 6:66-69) No question about it. We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the "faithful and discreet slave" organization.
However, this has resulted in a continual refining of the body of Bible-based truth to which Jehovah’s Witnesses subscribe.
Over the years, as adjustments have been made to that body of truth, it has become ever more wonderful and applicable to our lives in these "last days."
This makes me laugh. If "truth" needed "adjustments" then it never was "truth" to begin with. I wish I realized that 20 years ago.
W
I remember, in my first meeting with the BOE + 2COs (looks chimical this way) prior to my JC, when I was advised not to put too much emphasis on Jesus, because Jehovah should come first, I quoted 1 John 2:23 (NWT):
Everyone that denies the Son does not have the Father either. He that confesses the Son has the Father also.
None of them had never noticed this text. They had to open their Bibles to check that I was not misquoting...
I think Galatians 1 & 2 blows apart any concept of a FDS and Governing Body pretty effectively.
Let me quote a bit:
Gal 1:1 - Paul, an apostle—sent not from men nor by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father
Gal 1:6 - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel
Gal 1:10 - Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Gal 1:15-17 - But when God, who set me apart from birth[a] and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus.
Gal 1:19 - I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord's brother.
Okay, so the dude who wrote most of the Bible didn't consult with the Governing Body. Nice.
Gal 2:4,5 - This matter arose because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.
Gal 2:11 - When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. (How often do you correct a member of the governing body? Does anybody?)
Gal 2:19 - I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Do Christians need a giant set of laws?)
ackack
Finally Free said: In light of the above scripture, my questions would be:
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w90 1/15 p. 13 A Sacred Secret Unfolds ***" Peter writes at 1 Peter 3:19, 20: "In this state also he went his way and preached to the spirits in prison, who had once been disobedient when the patience of God was waiting in Noah’s days." According to Jude 6, those spirits were "the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place" in the heavens. They took on fleshly bodies in order to enjoy illicit sex relations with women. When the Deluge compelled those angels to return to the spirit realm, they were thrown into Tartarus, a condition of utter debasement. (2 Peter 2:4) The resurrected Jesus preached to them. But was that a message of salvation? Definitely not! Rather, Jesus condemned their wickedness as being the very antithesis of godly devotion
First let me tell you I am copying this whole thread for future use, hopefully.
Now, some of my own collection:
John 5:24
“Most truly I say to you, he that hears my word and believes in him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgement but has passed over from death to life.”
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9
“If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
1 John 2:27
“But the anointing which you have received of Him abides in you, and you need not that any man teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you of all things, and is no lie, and even as it has taught you, you shall abide in Him.”
TEST THE TEACHING
1 John 4:1 The Living Bible
“Dearly beloved friends, don’t always believe everything you hear just because someone says it is a message from God: test it first to see if it really is.”
Acts 17:10-11
“Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.
1 Thess 5:21
“Test everything. Hold on to the good”
Psalm 146:3 NWT
“Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.”
James 1:5, 4:8
“But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives to all men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him……
“Draw near to God and he will draw near to you.”
Matthew 23:8,10 New International Version
“But you are not to be called rabbi for you have only one Master and you are all brothers….nor are you to be called “teacher” for you have one teacher, the Christ.”
John 8:31-32
“The truth will make you free”
"If one rejects a matter before he hears, it is folly and shame to him." (Proverbs 18:13, LITV)
SALVATION
Galatians 3:23-26 (Phillips Modern English)
“Before the coming of this faith, we were all imprisoned under the power of the law, with our only hope of deliverance the faith that was to be shown to us. The law was like a strict tutor in charge of us until we went to the
Galatians 2:16, 21
“So we too have put our faith in Jesus Christ that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified…I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing.”
Romans 8:3 & Ephesians 2:4-5
“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions…….it is by grace you have been saved.”
Romans 4:5
“However, to the man who does not work [for salvation] but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.”
Romans 6:23
“But the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord”
Romans 8:1
“Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ.”
1 John 5:10-13
“The one who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; and the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life………he who has the son has the life…These things I have written to you in order that you may know that you have eternal life.”
RELIGIOUS LEADERS
Matthew 25:25 New English Bible
“You know that in the world, rulers lord it over their subjects, and their great men make them feel the weight of authority; but it shall not be so with you. Among you, whoever wants to be great, must be your servant.”
Galatians 5:1
“It was for freedom that Christ has set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject to a yoke of slavery.”
John 14:6
“I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.”
Acts
“There is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we may be saved.”
1 Corinthians 3:11 (NIV)
“For no man can lay any other foundation than what is laid, which is Jesus Christ.”
1 Timothy 2:5-6
“For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a corresponding ransom for all.”
FALSEHOOD
Proverbs 10:19
“In the abundance of words there does not fail to be transgression, but the one keeping his lips in check is acting discreetly”.
Jeremiah 17:5-8
“Cursed is the man who trusts in human beings, who seeks his strength in flesh, whose heart turns away from Jehovah…….Blessed is the man.….”
Luke 21:8
When Christ foretold the coming of false Messiahs, he spoke also of men who would come saying:
“the time is very near now”, and he counselled “never follow men like that”.
Matthew 24:11 & 23
“and many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.”
“Then if any man shall say unto you, lo, here is the Christ or there, believe it not. For there shall rise false Christs and false prophets and shall show great signs and wonders…if it were possible they shall deceive the very elect.”
Acts 1:7
“He said to them, it is not for you to know the times or the epochs which the father has fixed by his own authority.”
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
“But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in my name which I have not commanded him to speak…that prophet shall die. And you may say in your heart, ‘how shall we know the Word which the Lord has not spoken?’ When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. You shall not be afraid of him.”
HYPOCRISY
Matthew 7:3-5 ( Bible) Jesus’ words
“Why do you observe the splinter in your brother’s eye and never notice the plank in your own? How dare you say to your brother, let me take the splinter out of your eye, when all the time there is a plank in your own? Hypocrite! Take the plank out of your own eye first, and then you will see clearly enough to take the splinter out of your brother’s eye.”
BAPTISM & THE HOLY SPIRIT
Acts 5:3-4
“why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?…….why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God.
Colossians 2:8,9
“Beware lest any man spoil you by philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.”
Whole of Romans Chapters 3 and 4
All of Galatians
Romans 8:9 (NWT)
"However, you are not of the flesh, but of the spirit, if God`s spirit truly dwells in you. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong
to him." Psalm 119:130
“The unfolding of your words gives light, it gives understanding to the simple”
Matthew 7:12
“Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them…for this is the law and the prophets”
On the two commandments of loving God and loving one’s neighbour, “depend the law and the prophets” (Matt )
“The bearing witness to Jesus inspires all prophesying” (, compare 1 Peter ,11)
1 Corinthians
"If Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found FALSE WITNESSES OF GOD"
John 6:53, 53 (NWT)
"…most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves. He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day”.
Revelation 19:1 (NWT)
After these things I heard what was a loud voice of a great crowd IN HEAVEN, they said “Praise Jah”
2 Peter 1:1
“…by the righteousness of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”
2 Peter 3:15,16
“…brother Paul, also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If anyone thinks he has acquired knowledge of something, he does not yet know it just as he ought to know it. But if anyone loves God, this one is known by him - 1 Cor 8:1-3
1 Corinthians 13 (English Standard Version)
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love,
I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient and kind;
Love does not envy or boast;
It is not arrogant or rude.
It does not insist on its own way;
It is not irritable or resentful;
It does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth.
Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never ends.
As for prophecies, they will pass away;
As for tongues, they will cease;
As for knowledge, it will pass away.
When I was a child I , I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now, we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully even as I have been fully known.
So now faith, hope and love abide, these three;
But the greatest of these is love.
Matthew 5:43-48
43 “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbour and hate your enemy.’ 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens , since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same
John 2:19-20-- In answer Jesus said to them: "Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." Therefore the Jews said: "This temple was built in forty-six years, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he was talking about the temple of his body.
Matt 10:28-- And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen´na
When you're standing in front of their immense pile of WT publications Ecc 12:12-- As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh.
Acts 2:36-40--"Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call." With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." 41 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.
Isaiah 44:24--“I, Yahweh, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by myself, and spreading out the earth all alone"
When the CO is coming to visit, Matt 6:1--"Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."
Here's a treasure trove of relevant verses, by subject: http://www.kevinquick.com/kkministries/books/reasoning/index.html
