Was Jesus predestined to die?

ringo5

According to WTS, the first prophecy in the bible (Gen 3:15) applies to Jesus and was partially fulfilled when the he died on the ~~cross~~ stake. So how did Jesus or anyone that had anything to do with his death have any freewill if he was predestined to die?

Say the Jews had decided they kinda liked him or thought he was at least entertaining and decided to let him hang around? Wait! That would mean God's prophecy wouldn't come true!

Jehovah would then have to go down to his myriads of angels and ask for volunteers to do some sacrificing because his firstborn wasn't playing ball?

Or are prophecies completely different than predestination?

Has this been dealt with by any dub literature that anyone's aware of?

tetrapod.sapien

applies to Jesus and was partially fulfilled when the he died on the ~~cross~~ stake. So how did Jesus or anyone that had anything to do with his death have any freewill if he was predestined to die?

exactly ringo, exactly.

how is it even a sacrifice for sin comitted under "free will", when jesus "dying" (even though it wasn't a real death [another matter]) was gonna happen no matter what? it gets even trickier with the trinity because jesus IS god, meaning that he was gonna do it for sure, as it was his will.

also, if jesus had "chosen" not to die, then i would like to know from xians how *that* world would be any different from *this* world.

TS

Shazard

Somebody is not understanding predestination. Have you playet Role Playing Games (not on computers). There you have free will to do whatever you like, but anyway gamemaster can tell what will happen even it hapenned. So you still have free will, and still you are predestinated to do something game master have planned!

tetrapod.sapien

yes shazard, because the players already have "free will", or choice. we already have that sepperate of the game. that's like saying: "look at me in this roll playing game! i have arms!!" when in reality, you have arms in the game, because you have arms in reality.

unless you think reality is the ultimate roll playing game, then i fail to see how that makes sense.

i can take the concept of choice within biological and physical constraints, but not free will.

of course, the real question here, is, does free will exist? and if it does, does it exist independently of ourselves? or is it only found within?

we know from science that we are animals. and we will go on and on about how much better we are than other animals because they have no choice due to their biology. and yet, we rarely stop to think of our own biology as basically the same, with simply the illusion of choice, and free will, so that existence isn't so grinding on our highly intelligent minds. we really have poor imaginations. i see us looking around at all the choices that are available to us as per what is biologically/physically possible, and thinking that these are the only choices period. and how special we are as a result.

TS

gaiagirl

Without a doubt, Jesus would have died within the next 70 years or so, no matter what had happened. As presented, the story is simply illogical. In essence, God makes arrangements to sacrifice himself TO himself, so that he can change rules which he made in the first place, and forgive humans for something their ancestors did? And because this was all Gods plan, Judas and Herod and all the others who helped God carry out his plan are GUILTY of something BAD? If God really IS Love, as claimed, why could he not simply say "I forgive you"?

Spectrum

gaiagirl,

" And because this was all Gods plan, Judas and Herod and all the others who helped God carry out his plan are GUILTY of something BAD? If God really IS Love, as claimed, why could he not simply say "I forgive you"?
"

I never understood the ransom story. It smacks of the man made urge to pay up for something. I think you are right, "I forgive you" would have suffice, considering God is meant to be all loving, which of itself is a contradiction because if your read the OT, you'll see that Jehovah might as well be beelzebab.

"Was Jesus predestined to die?"
I remember being told by a JW that had the Jews accepted Christ His kingdom would have started in jerusalem 2000 years ago and he would have stuck around long enough for his kingdom to be established. That implies that he wasn't predestined to die and we would never have been born.
But then again giving up his body at the end of his mission could have sufficed as a ransom.

ringo5

T.S.

also, if jesus had "chosen" not to die, then i would like to know from xians how *that* world would be any different from *this* world.

good question, looks like only 1 christian responded here and this wasn't dealt with...

shazard:

somebody is not understanding predestination. have you playet role playing games (not on computers). there you have free will to do whatever you like, but anyway gamemaster can tell what will happen even it hapenned. so you still have free will, and still you are predestinated to do something game master have planned!

Since predestination isn't mentioned in the bible, where are you getting your definition from? I really don't understand your analogy either, I'm just going by that prophecy that infers jesus is going to die. was his only choice how it would happen I'm looking for?

gaiagirl

without a doubt, jesus would have died within the next 70 years or so, no matter what had happened.

I agree with all of your points, but dying of old age would have thrown out the perfection idea and certainly the ransom.

Spectrum

i remember being told by a jw that had the jews accepted christ his kingdom would have started in jerusalem 2000 years ago and he would have stuck around long enough for his kingdom to be established. that implies that he wasn't predestined to die and we would never have been born.

I never heard that from any dubs before. One of the 2 reasons he came to earth supposedly was to give his life for a ransom. So what would that scenario have done for all us poor sinning shmucks?

All I'm really looking for is some Christian to explain this to me in the most logical way possible. I want to see that I did at least have some plausible way of looking at this so I feel less like an idiot to have believed this for so long. For the life of me I don't remember how I used to rationalize this stuff before as a dub.

AlmostAtheist

JW's say that Jehovah exercised his ability to see into the future. He doesn't have to affect the future, just look into it. That it happens to work out exactly like he needs it to is beside the point, it seems.

Does that help?

Sorry, but I had to smile when you said, "All I'm really looking for is some Christian to explain this to me in the most logical way possible". Dude, make up your mind! Do you want it from the Bible, -OR- do you want it logical? :-)

Dave

ringo5

JW's say that Jehovah exercised his ability to see into the future. He doesn't have to affect the future, just look into it. That it happens to work out exactly like he needs it to is beside the point, it seems.

Does that help?

Yeah well I remember the radio analogy - jah can tune his radio to the FUTURE band and find out how things are going to work out. He only turns on his radio when he really needs to, (maybe it runs the batteries out) and doesn't call the station for requests or for free tickets to see Cheap Trick!

But this doesn't really change the problem from the predestination side. If its in the future and jah heard it on his radio, how can it turn out any different? If it did, would jah take his radio back to Future shop and ask for a refund?

Sorry, but I had to smile when you said, "All I'm really looking for is some Christian to explain this to me in the most logical way possible". Dude, make up your mind! Do you want it from the Bible, -OR- do you want it logical? :-)

Yeah I know it's either illogical or not. Is there such thing as Jehovalogical?

deeskis

I remember having a similar conversation with my dad years ago. at that time he was out, but he's back in again

I told him that in a way I felt sorry for Judas because he was the fall guy, I mean if he was set up to be the bad guy, then we almost owe him some thanks (if you believe any of it?) he still believing said that of course Judas had a choice, but imperfect human nature would mean that somebody would do it.

then I took it back to Adam and Eve. I mean any parent can relate to telling your young child "Don't touch that", it's like a red rag to a bull. I'm not saying Adam and Eve were children, but they were totally innocent, and if your innocent child, that you truly love does something disobedient (what child doesnt?) then you might punish them, teach them a lesson.

So anyway, if God didn't like their actions why blame and punish all of mankind. Why not just get rid of Adam and Eve, and start again? Wh did it have to be a perfect life, for a perfect life. He makes up the rulz, he made them in his image, he was behaving like a spoilt brat....(ok I didn't say that one to my father!)

Dad said I was being silly, I still don't see why. It seems logical to me.......

Was Jesus predestined to die?

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