apostates - all liars - generalizing (page 2)

bigmouth

stilla this is something I'm thinking a lot about lately. I've disappeared for 10 years, but as far as I can tell none of the Witnesses knows about my apostacy. The thing is, that if done carefully, leaving the org. could have a beneficial effect on getting others out.

Notwithstanding all sorts of personal and family reasons to just 'get out' and be done with it there must be some way of influencing right-minded others.

I don't know but perhaps what is required is the personal skills you develop as a Witness to subtly undermine long held beliefs and to rattle the sense of security many have. This would mean being something of a 'snout' or 'sleeper' for an extended period of time. A person that could run with the rabbit and hunt with the hound as it were.

Obviously Witnesses are instantly alert to overt apostacy and dodgy thinking so simply confronting them with facts just isn't going to work most of the time.

Bit of a ramble as I was writing as I was thinking, but can someone pick up the thread of this idea??
Love to hear your thoughts.
Pete

MidwichCuckoo

if somebdoy becomes an apostate they are automatically liars in the eyes of JWs. Every time apostasy is mentioned in magazines it is always in the context that they are automatically liars.

That's THEIR problem, not yours. YOU are not responsible for their silly interpretations. There is NO dictionary definition that I have found that states that Apostates are liars.

ringo5

They don't necessarily disagree with all apostates:

*** sh chap. 1 pp. 7-8 Why Be Interested in Other Religions? ***
10 With so many religions in a world that gets smaller and smaller by virtue of ever faster travel and communication, the impact of various faiths is felt worldwide, whether we like it or not. The outrage that broke out in 1989 over the book The Satanic Verses, written by what some people termed ‘an apostate Muslim,’ is clear evidence of how religious sentiment can manifest itself on a global scale. There were calls from Islamic leaders for the book to be banned and even for the author to be put to death. What makes people react so vehemently in matters of religion?

Ah, they can be so objective when their satanic verses are not being exposed!

Black Sheep

Dad "Where did you get this info from?" Me " the WT, I have shelves full of them." Dad "Yes, but who told you about it?" Me "It's all in the indexes, you just look up the index"

Jeffro

Any person who leaves a religion to become a Jehovah's Witness is also an apostate.

Black Sheep

Dad "How do you know what a July 1912 WT says?"

Me "The Bible Students publish them on the internet for free"

Mum looks at me as though there are horns growing out of my head.

Me "When you go to the library, you don't care who owns it or what book is next to it on the shelf. You just go to the library, get the book you want and read it.

Mum calmed down a bit then, but I could see she was quite shocked that the IBS was still active.

One day I asked what prophesy they had ever made that came true. She answered, "Jesus coming in 1914". She was shocked when her adored/goody two shoes/wants to be an elder/grandson in law backed me up when I enlightened them

The last time my father brought up some of his religious vomit I told him I had had enough lies in my life, and left.

I have been back, but only when I can leave whenever I feel the need. All of my family knows that I will not put myself in a situation where I cannot leave my parents home at the drop of a hat.

My mother offered me a really big favour one day, a 4hr drive (each way) to a funeral. I told her that it was a really bad idea for me to be trapped in a car with my father for that length of time. I had to tell her that I considered him nothing but a WT Terrorist, "He can't drive past a dead cat without rabbiting on about the signs of the times. Forget it, Mum.", before she got the point.

I have said a couple of things that kicked cognitive dissonance in her. I could see it in her eyes. She is the one that is suffering from my withdrawal from contact with them and I feel bad about that, but she has got the point (without me saying it) that I think that, despite his self rightiousness, my father is the evil one in the family.

To make it worse for her, I have said nothing that she can contradict with her WT bible.

Fortunately, I never made the mistake of getting baptised, so I don't have the problem of them shunning me, but the results are pretty much the same anyway.

Chris

prophecor

I've said this before and I'll say it again. I've always been puzzled before learning about " Apostates ". Why would anyone leave Jehovah's Organisation in the first place? What is it that they know that would cause them to leave? Do they really have information that could make me think differently?

Anybody puporting a lie should be easily snuffed out, afterall, we have the truth, no matter what anyone else has to say. Of course, I was affraid to take a look at information that had been made available, at least on the outside, but when I was able to ascertain information via the interenet, I was still affraid, but my curiosity over rided my fear, and here I am.

The things that Apostates have brought to my attetion have never, to my satisfaction been refuted by Jehovah's Witnesses. They refuse to acknowledge the truthfullness or not of those who have Apostate views. They don't even try to defend themselves or the organisation. They merely go silent on the issues. Speechless.

Mary

garybuss said: they CAN'T address specific subjects or specific lies for obvious reasons. All that's left is to poison the well. To a rational person, this is a big clue something's wrong.

And believe it or not, it was the articles in the Watchtower about 'apostates' that got me thinking. It always annoyed me when they'd have these articles about how baaaad apostates were, but they wouldn't tell you specifically what it was that apostates were saying that they found so offensive. They generalize and say vague things like "....apostates say that preaching isn't necessary...." or "...apostates jeer at the spiritual food that Jehovah has provided through the F&DS..."

Neither statement addressed any of the issues that are really discussed and for obvious reasons. If a WT article specifically said "..apostates do not believe that preaching is necessary because there is no evidence in the bible that first century christians ever preached door-to-door.." or if they said "...apostates don't believe that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE because all historical, archaeological and biblical evidence shows it was really destroyed in 586 BCE..." then they have a major problem on their hands. People might start rationalizing on their own and we can't have that.

I remember being at someone's door years ago who in hindsight was a 'postate (probably Scully or Mouthy) and they told me that Jerusalem wasn't destroyed in 607 BCE and gave me a flyer to prove it. I took it and had planned on reading it (because as a faithful Dub, I had no doubt that it would be easy to refute whatever was written there). However, the brother I was working with forced me to throw it away before I got the chance to read it, telling me that we "don't read anything that conflicts with the 'Truths' that we've learned from Jehovah's Organization.." That really annoyed me, even though I was only about 16 years old at the time, because I always thought '...if we have the Truth, then it will be able to stand up to any scrutiny...' Alas, I wasn't allowed to.

To brand all 'postates as liars is the WTS, or any religions' only card to play. Jesus would have been viewed an an apostate by the Pharisees as would all his disciples who accepted Him as the Messiah. Paul most certainly would have been viewed this way, as he had apparently been a Pharisee himself. Martin Luther would have been viewed as one as well as countless others who openly question their churchs' beliefs. However, 'apostacy' as far as I know, means turning your back on God, not a religion. In the end, it's God who has the final say as to who's an 'apostate', not men.

gumby

One thing that really pisses me off and stops me "coming out" as an apostate is that, if somebdoy becomes an apostate they are automatically liars

Stilla,

Why would you need to "come out" ? Why can't you come out in a fading way and be silent as to why?

If I had to do it all over again I would'nt have been verbal as to why I left. I told my wife why, ( 3 occations), my daughter ( only once). From there it went to all in the congregation that Gumby is an apostate ( or doesn't want the truth any more)...not sure how they worded it to others.

Theres no need to let everyone know ( witnesses) you think this religion is a cult. You can be clever about it and do it discreetly if you want to get involved verbally with others.

Sometimes however, we who try to fade quietly get caught anyway. We are seen going in a church, a christian bookstore, we smoke, caught reading apostate literature or online apostate sites, etc. Many get tired of hiding all this and do it anyway.... but still keep quiet verbally to other dubs.

If you keep your mouth shut to other dubs and make no public scene in anti-dub campaigns, your chances of being labeled "apostate" is much slimmer.....even if your caught doing something considered apostate. Verbalizing to others your anti-witness opinions will get you an apostate label quicker than seeing you walk in another church.

Gumby

Mary

Gumbers said: We are seen going in a church, a christian bookstore, we smoke, caught reading apostate literature or online apostate sites

And don't ferget being seen goin' into the Porn shops Gumbo.......that's usually a dead giveaway.

apostates - all liars - generalizing

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