Biblical beliefs that are similar to older pagan beliefs

by M.J. 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Severus
    Severus

    Amen to that!

    Oh, that's pagan too...

    Catholic Commentary


    Finally, we may note that the word Amen occurs not infrequently in early Christian inscriptions, and that it was often introduced into anathemas and gnostic spells. Moreover, as the Greek letters which form Amen according to their numerical values total 99 (alpha=1, mu=40, epsilon=8, nu=50), this number often appears in inscriptions, especially of Egyptian origin, and a sort of magical efficacy seems to have been attributed to its symbol. It should also be mentioned that the word Amen is still employed in the ritual both of Jews and Mohammedans.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01407b.htm

    Muslim Commentary


    A traditional Muslim may argue that although "Amen" is not mentioned in the Quran, the Prophet did ask us to say it in our prayers. Moreover, since there is nothing wrong with it's meaning it should be acceptable. However, this assumption can have serious implications if we trace back this word's origin in history, for we find that the word "Amen" has pagan idol worship connotations. In the Columbia Encyclopedia, 6th Edition 2001it is written

    "Amon or Amen, Egyptian deity. He was originally the chief god of Thebes; he and his wife Mut and their son Khensu were the divine Theban triad of deities. Amon grew increasingly important in Egypt, and eventually he (identified as Amon Ra; see Ra) became the supreme deity. He was identified with the Greek Zeus (the Roman Jupiter). Amon's most celebrated shrine was at Siwa in the Libyan desert; the oracle of Siwa later rivaled those of Delphi and Dodona. He is frequently represented as a ram or as a human with a ram's head."

    The Egypt Travel and Antiquities Guide in their article about "Amen" describes the meaning of the name as follows

    "Of the attributes ascribed to Amen in the Ancient Empire nothing is known, but, if we accept the meaning "hidden" which is usually given to his name, we must conclude that he was the personification of the hidden and unknown creative power which was associated with the primeval abyss, gods in the creation of the world, and all that is in it. The word or root amen, certainly means "what is hidden," "what is not seen," "what cannot be seen," and the like, and this fact is proved by scores of examples which may be collected from texts of all periods. In hymns to Amen we often read that he is "hidden to his children, "and "hidden to gods and men," and it has been stated that these expressions only refer to the "hiding," i.e., "setting" of the sun each evening, and that they are only to be understood in a physical sense, and to mean nothing more than the disappearance of the god Amen from the sight of men at the close of day. Now, not only is the god himself said to be "hidden," but his name also is "hidden," and his form, or similitude, is said to be "unknown;" these statements show that "hidden," when applied to Amen, the great god, has reference to something more than the "sun which has disappeared below the horizon," and that it indicates the god who cannot be seen with the mortal eyes, and who is invisible, as well as inscrutable, to gods as well as men."

    It may be conjectured that this "hidden god" is no other than Satan who has managed to successfully elude not only the Muslims but also the Jews and Christians as well to this day!

    http://www.free-minds.org/articles/history/amen.htm

    Japanese Commentary


    So Amen was originally the name of a pagan god, who was considered a form of God the Creator. But he was certainly not considered God, or Christ. Interestingly, most pagans today tend not to use the word, preferring instead to say "So mote it be", an old Anglo-Saxon term. Perhaps they see the word Amen in the Bible and the Tanakh and don't want to be associated with Christianity or the like. Indeed, in the Bible we see Jesus Christ referred to as "The Amen". Christ is God's Amen to all that he has spoken. Thereby the name used for an old Egyptian god is replaced by the same name used for Christ.

    http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/amen.html

    Jehovah's Witness Commentary


    Insight Vol 11 pp. 90-91 Amen

    AMEN

    This word in both English and Greek is a transliteration from the Hebrew ´a·men´. The meaning is "so be it," or "surely." The Hebrew root word from which it is drawn (´a·man´) means "be faithful; be trustworthy."

    In the Hebrew Scriptures the word is used as a solemn expression to obligate oneself legally to an oath or covenant and its consequences (Nu 5:22; De 27:15-26; Ne 5:13), also as a solemn expression to subscribe to an expressed prayer (1Ch 16:36), to an expression of praise (Ne 8:6), or to an expressed purpose (1Ki 1:36; Jer 11:5). Each of the first four books, or collections, of the Psalms concludes with this expression, perhaps indicating that it was customary for the congregation of Israel to join in at the end of the song or psalm with an "Amen."—Ps 41:13; 72:19; 89:52; 106:48.

    The Hebrew word ´a·man´ is applied to Jehovah as "the faithful God" (De 7:9; Isa 49:7) and describes his reminders and promises as "trustworthy" and "faithful." (Ps 19:7; 89:28, 37) In the Christian Greek Scriptures the title "Amen" is applied to Christ Jesus as "the faithful and true witness." (Re 3:14) Jesus made singular use of the expression in his preaching and teaching, using it very often to preface a statement of fact, a promise, or a prophecy, thereby emphasizing the absolute truthfulness and reliability of what he said. (Mt 5:18; 6:2, 5, 16; 24:34) In these cases the Greek word (a·men´) is translated as "truly" (KJ, "verily") or, when doubled, as throughout the book of John, "most truly." (Joh 1:51) Jesus’ use of "amen" in this way is said to be unique in sacred literature, and it was consistent with his divinely given authority.—Mt 7:29.

    However, as Paul shows at 2 Corinthians 1:19, 20, the title "Amen" applies to Jesus not merely as a truth speaker or as a true prophet and spokesman of God but also as the one in whom all of God’s promises find fulfillment. His course of faithfulness and obedience even to a sacrificial death confirms and makes possible the bringing to reality of all the promises and declarations of God’s purpose. He was the living Truth of those revelations of God’s purpose, the things to which God had sworn.—Compare Joh 1:14, 17; 14:6; 18:37.

    The expression "Amen" is used many times in letters, especially those of Paul, when the writer has expressed some form of praise to God (Ro 1:25; 16:27; Eph 3:21; 1Pe 4:11) or expresses the wish that God’s favor be manifested in some manner toward the recipients of the letter. (Ro 15:33; Heb 13:20, 21) It is also used where the writer earnestly subscribes to what is expressed.—Re 1:7; 22:20.

    The prayer expressed at 1 Chronicles 16:36 and those contained in the Psalms (41:13; 72:19; 89:52; 106:48), as well as the expressions contained in the canonical letters, all indicate the correctness of the use of "Amen" at the close of prayers. It is true that not all the prayers recorded show such conclusion, such as David’s closing prayer for Solomon (1Ch 29:19) or Solomon’s dedication prayer at the inauguration of the temple (1Ki 8:53-61), although such expression may well have been made. (Note 1Ch 29:20.) Similarly, its use is not recorded in Jesus’ prayers (Mt 26:39, 42; Joh 17:1-26) or in the prayer of the disciples at Acts 4:24-30. However, the weight of the prior evidence presented strongly indicates the rightness of the use of "Amen" as a conclusion to prayer, and Paul’s statement at 1 Corinthians 14:16 in particular shows that it was customary for those in Christian assembly to join in the Amen to a prayer. Additionally, the examples of those in heaven, recorded at Revelation 5:13, 14; 7:10-12; and 19:1-4, all give support to its use in subscribing to prayers or solemn statements and thereby, through the use of this one word, expressing the confidence, strong approval, and earnest hope that is in their hearts.

    Jesus Commentary


    YOU must pray, then, this way:

    Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. Give us today our bread for this day; and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one. (Matthew 6:9-15)

    No "Amen"??
  • DaCheech
    DaCheech

    JW's use the word Amen.

    I guess the WT did not do its research right. Or else they did not ban it for the sake of converts?

  • ICBehindtheCurtain
    ICBehindtheCurtain

    This is a great Thread- Thanks Narkissos for that link, very interesting - and Severus thank you for that information, it goes to show that although the JW's pride themselves in staying "Spiritualy Clean" this in itself is only an illusion, because pretty much everything we do had so called "Pagan" beginnings, even down to the Amen, DAMN!!!!

    I guess there's just no getting away from those damn pagans, so if you can't beat them JOIN THEM, besides theyr'e alot more FUN!!!!!

    IC

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Thanks everyone.

    Another question, if anyone's still around!

    How about the whole idea of a spirit realm with angelic beings surrounding a spirit God in heaven? Are there close parallels in older traditions there?

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    MJ,

    Two main influences here:

    (1) the old Canaanite pantheon, with a "heavenly court" of gods and goddesses around El, the Father of the gods, on a lofty mountain. All the OT references to the "sons of God" or the "assembly of Gods" (e.g. Genesis 6:3f, Deuteronomy 32:8f; Job 1--2 and many Psalms, for instance 82:1), are directly related to this old polytheistic representation.

    (2) the very concept of "angels" as a substitution for the ancient gods in the new frame of monotheism, probably owes much to Persian Zoroastrianism, once again. See for instance http://www.avesta.org/angels.html

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Thanks for the answer, Narkissos. I have a lot to study here for a while!

    Question for you: if a JW made this statement..."it's plain that the origin of the idea of an immaterial soul is pagan. We can observe that the same concept is found in pagan religions."

    What would be your quick response, assuming that you didn't want to destroy too much "common ground" by discrediting the historicity of the Bible?

  • M.J.
    M.J.
    (1) the old Canaanite pantheon, with a "heavenly court" of gods and goddesses around El, the Father of the gods, on a lofty mountain. All the OT references to the "sons of God" or the "assembly of Gods" (e.g. Genesis 6:3f, Deuteronomy 32:8f; Job 1--2 and many Psalms, for instance 82:1), are directly related to this old polytheistic representation.

    (2) the very concept of "angels" as a substitution for the ancient gods in the new frame of monotheism, probably owes much to Persian Zoroastrianism, once again. See for instance http://www.avesta.org/angels.html

    OK so are you saying that the concept of angels in Zoroastrianism predates the Jewish record of angels as in Genesis? Is there a sort of conspiracy theory that the texts were altered after the 6th century to substitute the word "god(s)" with the word "angel(s)"? Or that the portion of Genesis which mentioned angels were written after contact between Judaism and Zoroastrianism?

  • M.J.
    M.J.
    Belief in demons is not connected with any particular view of the cosmos. Demons have a very wide geographical and lengthy historical role as spiritual beings influencing man in his relationship to the sacred or holy. They may be semihuman, nonhuman, or ghostly human beings who, for various reasons, generally attempt to coerce man into not attaining his higher spiritual aspirations or not performing activities necessary for his well-being in the normal course of living. The ancient Assyrian demon rabisu apparently is a classic prototype of a supernatural being that instilled such a fear in men that their hair literally raised from their bodies when confronted with knowledge of the rabisu's presence.

    "ang"angel and demon." Encyclopædia Britannica from Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service. <http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-33969> [Accessed January 23, 2006].

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    if a JW made this statement..."it's plain that the origin of the idea of an immaterial soul is pagan. ; We can observe that the same concept is found in pagan religions."

    What would be your quick response, assuming that you didn't want to destroy too much "common ground" by discrediting the historicity of the Bible?

    I guess I'd start to show that the basic concept of "soul" as distinct from the body in the Bible too... then would question the very notion of "paganism".

    OK so are you saying that the concept of angels in Zoroastrianism predates the Jewish record of angels as in Genesis? Is there a sort of conspiracy theory that the texts were altered after the 6th century to substitute the word "god(s)" with the word "angel(s)"? Or that the portion of Genesis which mentioned angels were written after contact between Judaism and Zoroastrianism?

    I don't think that the extant text of Genesis predates the Persian period. Many stories may well be older, but the overall redaction assumes the official post-exilic monotheism (although in a much less exclusivist way than Deuteronomy). The earlier polytheistic background only appears here and there in noteworthy "slips" -- e.g. "our image," "the man has become like us," the "sons of (the) god(s)," etc. As to "angels," one has to note that the Hebrew mal'akh means "messenger," and it often applies to human messengers. So not every mal'akh needs to be a heavenly being.

    The case of demons is especially interesting. The ancient type of Mesopotamian demons are very rare in the OT (there may be an allusion to the rabiçu in Genesis 4:7, "sin is lurking (rbç) at the door"). On the other hand the later apocalyptical demons, linked to post-exilic angelology (with some Persian influence), seem to pop up from nowhere in the NT.

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    Just to add that there were gods whose role was specifically that of intercessor/messengers because the higher gods were unable to descend themselves. I found it interesting that in the Nergal and Ereshkigal story they as messengers used a stairway (Jacob story?) to commute from heaven to earth. This puts an interesting light on the whole OT concept of messengers for Yahweh.

    And just to add that the OT concept of demons was different in that the demons played a role as destroyers or blight but always served the interest of God. Azazel, Mashit and others should probably be counted as OT demons.

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