Self-intro, newbie questions

by Nara 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Nara
    Nara

    Hello everyone,

    I've been "cruising" the boards for two months now, and there appears to be a lot of very knowledgeable and "cool" individuals here.

    I recently embarked on a introductory bible-study with the JWs in my area. I know that probably isn't music to most of your ears, but rest assured that I'm not remotely sold on their theology. Nor am I blind to the past scandals and current issues of the WTBTS--I've read about four different scholarly works about the Society.

    I was raised as a Lutheran, and I've had a decent amount of bible-schooling in the Lutheran denomination.

    My questions to you, those who would know, are these:

    1) Overall, what should I know about this bible study (that they won't tell me)?

    2) What tell-tale signs and tricks should I be on the lookout for as far as their desire to have me join, issues of theocracy, and in general?

    3) I have no desire to evangelize to them because I believe in respecting other peoples beliefs, but how can I stand my ground if they come out and tell me that something central to my faith is wrong? Is it even possible?

    These may seem like stupid or naive questions but I really have nowhere to turn. Thanks for your patience and thanks in advance to those who bother to reply!

    God bless :)

  • Lady Lee
    Lady Lee

    Welcome to the forum

    I'm glad to hear you have done some reading on them. I would suggest you read the following:

    Captive Hearts, Captive Minds/Take Back Your Life

    The first 3 chapters which have been posted help people identify the manipulations of a cult. It is far more important to undertand HOW they teach rather than WHAT they teach. If you begin to notice the manipulations and the things they don't say then you will be well equipped.

    But I must say: I'm curious. If you have no desire to become one than why even start to study?

    If you haven't done so yet wander through the Best of section of the board

  • ringo5
    ringo5

    Hi newbie,

    Sounds like you have your senses about you, that’s good. I will tell you One standard technique they use in either their third or fourth session, is that they will tell you that close friends or family will try to discourage you from continuing your study. They will tell you that Satan is using your friends and family To keep you from learning the truth about the Bible.

    This is effective for two reasons:

    1. if you do have friends or family that are concerned about your studying with the witnesses, and they do in fact try to discourage you, this can reinforce in your mind that you are on the right track .
    2. Any that do try to discourage you, will hopefully be labeled, in your mind at least, as being pawns of Satan, with whom you will probably discontinue association.

    Be careful....

  • DannyBloem
    DannyBloem

    Hi Nara,

    Welcome to the board.

    The 2 persons who give you the study, do of course not see it as a cult or high control organisation, and they give you study because they think it is in your best interest.
    So they do not try to trick you or something deliberatrly. They are mostly honest and mean every word they say.

    They will tell you probably that yi will get some oppsition from family and friends. (as noted above).

    When you are doing well, they will ask you to join to them to the kingdom hall for the meetings.
    Then if they really think that you know enough, like almost finished the book, and you join all the meetings they willl ask you to go into the field service (door to door). And then the baptism.

    Most studies do not make it that far. Maybe 1 in every 100 or so.
    what is good to do is ask questions and see how thety react.

    Danny

  • Oroborus21
    Oroborus21

    Hi Nara

    and welcome to the forum.

    I commend you on your journey and continued development of your spirituality. it really is a never ending exploration.

    Before I put in my 2 cents re your questions I am interested in asking you a few.

    • Why Jehovah's Witnesses? What is the attraction for you?
    • What are your personal religious beliefs and which ones do you anticipate being in conflict with the JW theology - in its most current development?
    • How much are you personally willing to compromise?
    You don't have to answer these questions, though I would be interested in your answers, but they are mostly just for you to think about for yourself.

    My questions to you, those who would know, are these:

    1) Overall, what should I know about this bible study (that they won't tell me)?

    2) What tell-tale signs and tricks should I be on the lookout for as far as their desire to have me join, issues of theocracy, and in general?

    3) I have no desire to evangelize to them because I believe in respecting other peoples beliefs, but how can I stand my ground if they come out and tell me that something central to my faith is wrong? Is it even possible?

    One of the major reasons why Jehovah's Witnesses are not a cult is because there isn't a hidden agenda or systematic deception involved in the recruitment of members. [the whole "big news" misrepresentation debate aside :-) The purpose of the bible study as your study conductor will tell you if she or he has not already is ultimately to help you get to the point where you will see why you should become a dedicated and baptized Jehovah's Witness. Witnesses do desire for you to join and are upfront with their bible students about that. Therefore, if you know for certain that you have no interest in joining (by becoming a baptized JW) then you should state that very clearly to your friend/study conductor and probably consider terminating your regular bible study. If you are just interested in learning the beliefs (theology) and practices, etc. about Witnesses you can simply read the literature and just follow-up with any questions to the person without having a formal bible study. Being upfront yourself in this way, should be appreciated by the Witness.

    If you are considering becoming a Witness or if there is a possibility about that then it raises a different situation and I will only touch upon a couple of the most important issues that you should be aware of but before I do I want to preface my comments with a truth that I as a Witness, reared in the faith, was not aware of until much later in my adult years and wish that it had been related to me.

    That truth is simply this: NOT EVERY WITNESS BELIEVES THE SAME THINGS OR TO THE SAME DEGREE

    That statement is very important and deserves a little elaboration because you will find it not only extremely useful to you as you work out your own beliefs but also somewhat startling. You see, despite the official line, and despite the appearances sometimes, the fact is that not all Jehovah's Witnesses believe the theology, not all Witnesses exercise their faith to the same degree of sincerity, and indeed there are many active baptized Witnesses that do not personally accept or believe both certain doctrines and teachings and certain practices and aspects of the culture.

    These are just a few simplistic examples but for example, there are some Witnesses that celebrate Thanksgiving and some that don't. In areas of these sorts of things you will find a great variety of actual belief and practice. Similarly, even in major matters there are some that would accept blood or allow it to be used on their children for example. Some of these Witnesses have already decided to do so premeditatively (and secretly of course) and some who would do so if it really became necessary. Likewise, there are some Witnesses that know that 1914 is hogwash and the corresponding Faithful and Discreet Slave doctrine is likewise bogus and of course many who accept these important teachings in whatever latest form they are delivered.

    The point again is that at a fundamental level there is a great variety within the idealic unity and complete uniformity, however much pressed and desired by the leadership, is impossible and in fact not present in the worldwide association of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    But, there is a big "But" involved of course and it is this. If YOU are going to be different of if you are going to be one of these many Witnesses that do hold private disagreements or views contrary to what is "official" then, for the present time at least, there are consequences involved.

    These consequences which you must be prepared for include but are not limited to:

    -coming to terms in your own way with what will be your own noncomformity, and what may often appear to be your "failing to measure up" and the associated "guilt" or "negativity" that you will encounter constantly because the default environment and culture is one that is negative-biased. (To put this another way is to note that the communication from the platform and in the publications and many of the "talks" are negative focused, often critical of your ministerial efforts and critical of you as a human being. They are often focused on avoiding wrongdoing or avoiding sin, etc. instead of being positiviely focused or commending you/the audience for whatever your efforts may be.) Thus even if you are someone that can allow such negativity to roll off you like water off a duck's back, the persistance of this tends to eventually get to the most Pollyanna of people and many persons ultimately find themselves fighting feelings of guilt, of self-doubt and self-comdemnation at not "being good enough," depression, anger, and so forth.

    -justifying in your own way, or accepting in some way your own natural ability to hold contradictory beliefs or engage in hypocritical or contradictory actions, and possibly living a double life. [I will spare you a digression into what is a popular topic for JW-opposers, Cognitive Dissonance, and only note that the phenomenon is not as well-founded as opposers like to assert.]

    -accepting and dealing with possible social ostracism or disapproval from Witnesses because of your nonconformity

    -keeping any such nonconformity as secret and private as possible which is a requisite necessity (in the present Organization) in order to avoid "official action or punishment" (for "major" areas of nonconformity at least)

    -and finally, dealing with any official punishment, including up to, disfellowshipping, for any nonconformity that you fail to keep private or which you publicize or which presents a problem in the minds of certain others (Note: not every nonconformity may result in official action/punishment, many do not, especially minor items and things which are officially designated as "conscience matters.")

    So to sum up this important point: You can be a Witness in your own way, which may be different than the "ideal" Witness, but there may be both psychological and social consequences to that situation.


    Turning to your questions I would urge you to explore the following which arise from your study with Witnesses and possibly becoming a Witness.

    1. Disfellowshipping
    or DF'ing as we like to say here and the related Disassociation, are topics which I have found to be pretty much unexplored in most bible student/bible study situations with Witnesses. This is disconcerting because one of the things that you will certainly cover and be urged to embrace is to reduce your "worldly" aka non-JW contacts and social network.

    (Just an Aside: Unlike in a cult, which often forces the new cult member to cease all contact with former family and friends because they are opposed to your involvement, often and usually through physical means or through extreme coercion, Witnesses only encourage persons to break such relationships ONLY IF they are involving you in bad habits or unchristian conduct. Witnesses do not encourage prospective members (or even current members) to leave their husbands or wives who are opposed or even to terminate friendships or other familial relationships because these might be critical or opposed to the religion. While your engaging in Unchristian or disapproved conduct (smoking, fornication, loose morality or appearances of such) might prevent you from being approved to be baptized, your refusal to end your former friendships will not be a consideration or grounds to prevent you from becoming a Witness. I have given you this little aside because many opposers of JWs fail to appreciate these differences and will often completely mischaracterize what JWs do as being an attempt to isolate you socially as cults sometimes do as part of their systematic scheme of control.)

    However, you should be aware that your merely becoming one of Jehovah's Witnesses might very well end up isolating you from your old friends and even family members for a number of otherwise benign reasons such as your expected time commitment and involvement in attending meetings, field service, etc. or simply your new world-view and beliefs - not too mention perhaps ending your involvement in any number of social activities that you might have engaged in with them formerly but which you would now understand to be improper or simply no longer have the time to do.

    Therefore, what you need to be keenly aware of is there is the possibility that at some point down the road you may find that all of your social network consists of Jehovah's Witnesses. If so, then in the event of your DF'ing or Disassociation, you may find yourself in a very distressing situation as you seek to either rehabilitate old relationships or build new ones going forward.

    AS I said, this area is one which is only lightly touched upon, if at all, in bible studies but the consequences of it for you are significant and so you may wish to insist on a deep discussion about the topic. Now if you do, many Witnesses may seem to take it as implying that you have some sinful conduct, etc. that are reluctant to give up and are therefore "worried about being Disfellowshipped for" if you were to become a JW. If you see that to be the case then You may wish to either 1) explain to your study conductor that it isn't a matter of that but instead raise the issue in terms of something which you are firmly resolved in such as a belief which you know is contrary to present JW theology or 2) explore by asking the person whether it is ever possible to be mistakenly (avoid the term "wrongfully) DF'd or whether the imperfect Elders acting in the Judicial Committee might make a mistake or possibly even just ask whether they have known or heard of someone that was DF'd that perhaps shouldn't have been.

    In addition to this discussion above that you should have in your bible study, I would strongly urge you to get a taste of what being DF'd might be like by asking whether there are any DF'd ones at the Kingdom Hall and, if so, when you attend, making it a point to go up that person and introduce yourself.

    Now as an unbaptized bible student/new study/stranger at the Hall, there is actually nothing wrong with you introducing yourself to a disfellowshipped person HOWEVER the point for you will be to observe both the reaction of the DF'd person and the reaction of others. Trust me, if you do this, the reaction will tell you all you need to know about the situation and perhaps it will impress upon you some things more plainly than anything that your bible study conductor might try to tell you about being DF'd.

    Finally regarding this topic, I would suggest that you can and should mitigate any potential problem by holding on to your old friends and social network as best as you can. Not only will these friends provide you with an outside perspective, they may be the only ones there for you in the event that you prove too human or otherwise fall short of being an ideal Witness.

    2. Non-Conformity

    As I mention above, in reality Non-Conformity is in place among Jehovah's Witnesses, but not officially and not to any sense in a public way when it comes to the major areas of eithe religious belief or practices. Therefore, if you do have something which you already know will conflict with what the present JW way is, then you must either resign to keep this secret/private or expect that you will not be approved to become a baptized JW. While you may be tolerant of other's beliefs and respect the right of others to hold a different view, JWs, officially, are not and they will not respect your right to hold a different view or belief on any matter of significance. If you insist on having a navel piercing or seeing the next Harry Potter movie that is not going to keep you from being approved for baptism. Publcly insisting on allowing your child to have a blood transfusion or accepting it yourselfyourself will keep you from becoming one of JWs. 3. Preaching & Teaching aka the Ministry

    (Currently at least) being a "good" JW involves the ministry aka the formal ministry. Only engaging in your own private efforts aka informal ministry will not meet expectations. If you are not prepared to preach and teach others from door to door and from house to house and from street corner to street corner the "official party line" (despite whatever private beliefs you hold) then you can expect problems. If you can do so in good conscience, even if you hold different personal views, then you may be able to get by. You state that you respect other people's beliefs and to an extent so do most Jehovah's Witnesses. But in the end, the purpose of being a Witness to others (again under the present Organizational paradigm) is to undermine and help others discard their beliefs in favor of the Witness theology. Thus being a Witness may require you to change your own stance and act contrary to it.


    So let's sum up with giving you a few questions that perhaps you should ask your bible study conductor:

    • If I make my whole life revolving around the Truth, what would happen to me if I were to get Disfellowshipped or one day decide to disassociate myself.

    • After I join, Is there any way of leaving the Organization permanently that will allow me to stay friends with you or any of my new Witness friends?

    • I believe X, which I know is not currently accepted by JWs. Do I have to stop believing X in order to become one of Jehovah's Witnesses?

    • Are there any of the current beliefs or practices or aspects of the culture in the Organization, that YOU don't really believe in or accept privately? (This is just for your own explanation. If they insist that all JWs believe uniformly then you know the person is either lying or hasn't discovered the truth yet, and if they have private doubts or issues that they admit to you then that will open the door to a whole number of things useful to you.) (Here too, if you WANT to get into it, you might just ask about some of the recent changes, the 1914 Generation Doctrine, or perhaps Education, and inquire whether the person believed the party line and how they felt differently. If they start to give you the old, light gets brighter/progression response, you can focus on the issue by saying that, it seems then that it should be ok for a Witness (aka you) to hold a different belief because there is the possibility that you are correct and that the Society is the one that needs to come around. - just be aware that this might lead to a whole FDS discussion)

    • If there is something which I don't agree with or believe, would I be FREE to talk about it with other Witnesses or to talk about it with persons in the ministry?

    • I know that I should feel it a privilege and obligation to go in the ministry to share with others the truth and the good news, but what if I REALLY don't want to? Can I refuse to go in the ministry and still be treated with love and respect by the friends?

    • Finally, just for fun, where do you see the Organization and Jehovah's Witnesses in 10 years? 20 years? 50 Years from now?

    I believe that the answers to these questions from your bible study conductor will open up new avenues of thought and concern on your part, and possibly for them as well.
    best wishes to you Nara.

    -Eduardo Leaton Jr., Esq.

    PS: to other forum participants if you happen to disagree with somehting I have written in this post, let's not make it about me ok and keep it focused on helping Nara shall we?



  • A Paduan
    A Paduan
    2) What tell-tale signs and tricks should I be on the lookout for as far as their desire to have me join, issues of theocracy, and in general?

    They'll sort you out soon enough - there's a few attributes you must have to be a jw

    1. you need an apocalyptic view - to believe the world will end, soon even, that we're in the "last days" - if you don't think along those lines you'll exhibit "weakness of faith" and be weeded out.
    2. you need to believe that regardless of millenia of spirituality, other religions are stupid and blindly wrong, but that jws are really wise and right
    3. you need to close your ears to other truths about the "truth"
    4. you need to have limited intelligence - eg. "We know that your worldly friends will try to sway you away; it's because Satan controls them" - sure enough your worldly friends try to sway you away - Presto, they were right! Satan must control them.
    5. you need to swallow the whole catalyst to become hard, or you won't be able to neglect your neighbor and blame the "system"
  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff
    That truth is simply this: NOT EVERY WITNESS BELIEVES THE SAME THINGS OR TO THE SAME DEGREE

    I cannot agree to this statement. While there are always levels of trust and agreement, all witnesses do believe the same theology or they are excommunicated as 'apostates'. If they are solid enough witnesses to be at your door and conducting a Bible study with you they are in agreement with the Watchtower Theology.

    I don't know how anyone who was a witness for any length of time would not agree. The only exception might be those trying to 'fade' out, and likey they would not be the one's in you home.

    I did not read beyond this point in Oroboros' post due to this silly comment. In 40+ years a witness I never knew of a witness that did not agree with the organization.

    Jeff

  • carla
    carla

    They certainly ARE a CULT! Research Margaret Singer, Lifton, and Hassann (to name a few) on what is a cult. There are also others as well.

    For the above poster to say they don't have to all believe the same is simply dishonest. They certainly do have to have unity of thought, if you think otherwise you will be disfellowshiped (df'd).

    Why you want to study further with a group that the higher ups have lied and continue to lie to it's members is a mystery to me. Why you would want to even think of joining an organization that protects and covers up pedophiles (let's call it what it is here, child rape and molestation) is a mystery to me. Why you would want to belong to a group that puts child rapists into positions of authority is a mystery to me. Why you would want to belong to a group that will control how you dress, haircut, facial hair, what you may read or watch, how you may make love to your spouse, what holidays you may celebrate (none), who you may speak to, how you spend your time, etc..etc...etc.. is surely a mystery to me.

    In short, why do you want to be controlled in every aspect of your life? How can they be the 'truth' when they continually lie? How can they be the truth with all the doctrinal flip flops? How can you, a bible trained Lutheran even consider joining a group that has turned Jesus into an angel?

    Before you let this group destroy your life and that of your families, please, please do some more research about their doctrines and cults.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    I am having a hard time figuring out why you would invite a JW in to your home if you are not interested in joining, not interested in evangelizing, and are unsure as to how you will handle them once you get them there. It reminds me of when I used to bring home kitties, "But MOOO-OM, they followed me here!"

    Don't expect any challenging debates. If you ask any challenging questions they will likely put it aside to get the answer out of their Reasoning book. Though JW's are well-rehearsed in their presentation, they are not prepared for a direct challenge to their belief system. If they sense that you are not an "honest-hearted" (read, ready to accept their message lock-stock and barrel) it is unlikely that your visits will last past six or so. Because as nervous as you are about the upcoming study, the JW is ten times terrified that some "worldly people" like you will lead them away from the "Truth." If they at all sense this might be happening, they will shut the study down.

    When I've tried to engage a Jehovah's Witness in a reasonable debate, it has been as productive as trying to hang on to a wiggly kitten who has decided it's time to go back home to mommy.

    The magazines, however, will continue to arrive for life.

    If you want an instant but polite way of making them go away, print off some of your research on the interenet. Make sure the tags are still on the headers and footers of the printouts. Display the sheaf of papers prominently. And start your sentence with, "I've been doing some research on the internet....."

    Having said all that, here's some possible publications your study leader may start with. You could read up on them and have some prepared responses ready if you like.

    What Does God Require of Us? http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/index.htm

    Should you Believe in the Trinity? http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/index.htm

    Response: http://www.witnessinc.com/trinity.html

    Response (If you can gloss past the hype) http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-JW-SYBTT-Watchtower-BOOKLET-Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity-EXPOSED-REFUTED-pagan-section.htm

    There's another book but the title escapes me at the moment...

  • Shazard
    Shazard

    I am Lutheran too. My brother is in JW, and it was too late when he told me that. I was not prepared to fight them then, and now it is up to God himself to bring my Brother back, as I have preached him Gospel allready. Eanything else is job of Holy Spirit.
    Techniques which JW uses is decieving (they actually believe they have truth, so they are not evil just misguided). So they redefine terms, will try to confuse you with questions. Actually you have to know clearly WHAT Lutheran church teaches about all major aspects of Christianity.
    I would suggest that IF you study, then study with some good educated Lutheran friend, somebody who is trained to expose differences and to let you know OTHER opinion then JW.
    JW pretty good at knowing what normal people think about them, they will tell it to you and then you will feel like they are predicting things so they have some wisdom. No they have experience... about 100 year experience of brainwashing. You probably have maximum several weeks of Scriptular training as Lutheran. If you do not read offten your Bible and do not know how to defend your beliefs, then better not to be involved with JW.
    For example now I am not afraid to face JWs as my faith is very strong and I know JW better they do (I mean teaching not people).
    Be carefull they use "out-of-context" prooving. That is... try to prove something with similar verses where verses are in totally different context. They very tricky put into your mind things what are not told in Bible. For example that "small flock" is tha same "144000"... they make bizzare connections between scriptures, they twist and jump. They use your lack of knowledge of biblical languages (they don't know them too, just pretending). They show you some scriptures and do not show other scriptures which opposes they interpretation. They twist trinity even without understanding what it is and HOW trinity is thought in Lutheran church.
    Read www.bible.ca

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