Hebrews 11:13-16, there it clearly states that the pre Christ believers were looking forward not to an earthly paradise but something heavenly, they felt as aliens on earth and sought a heavenly homeland. The dubs expect to see them in a supposed earthly paradise and they once even built a beth sarim (luxurious villa) for them.
Disproving An Earthly Paradise
by Diogenes 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Rook
Heres Three Basic Thoughts Of The Old Testament---
1) God's promise to Abraham: that in his seed all Nations should be Blessed. God founded the Hebrew Nation for the specific purpose of making it a Messianic Nation to the World, that is, a nation through which Great Blessings would come to All Nations.
2) God's Covenant with the Hebrew Nation: That, if they would Faithfully Serve Him, they would Prosper as a Nation: That , if they forsook Him, and served Idols, they would be destroyed as a nation. All nations worshiped Idols. There were gods everywhere: gods of the sky, gods of the earth, gods of the sea, gods of the cities, gods of the mountain, gods of the valleys, men gods, femal gods, family of gods. The Old Testament is an account of God's age-long effort to establish, in a world of Idol-Worshiping nations, the IDEA that there is ONE GOD by building a NATION around the Idea.
3) God's Promise to David: That His Family should Reign over God's People Forever. When God's Nation became a Great Nation, Godd chose One Family in the nation, the Family of David, and began to build around that Family His Promise, that, out of that Family there would come One Great King, who would Himself personally Live Forever, and establish a Universal Kingdom of Endless Duration.
THUS: In founding the Hebrew Nation. God's ULTIMATE object Was to bring Christ into the world: God's IMMEDIATE object Was to establish, in a world of Idolatry, As a background to the coming of Christ, The Idea that there is One True Living God.
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Deputy Dog
I would ask them when does "Paradise" become "PARADISE"?
D Dog
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Shazard
Psalm and Isaiah speaks about Messianic time. Spiritual freedom in Christ. Christ is one who makes lions to live togeather with sheeps and babies can play with snakes. Think Christ - then you will understand EACH scripture.
Also - In Mat 5:17 Christ told that he came to Fulfill prophets and law. On the chros in John 19:30 Christ affirms that "everything is fulfilled". So in Christ you inherit the Earth, NOW is Messianic time, NOW 1000 years are happening, NOW there is first ressurection in Christ through his Word of Gospel. Kingdom of Heavens starts on Earth. -
moggy lover
When maintaining a dialogue with WT followers we need to pay attention to the importance they place on certain verses of Ps 37. Ps 37:29 is so vital to their theological interests that in their 1982 recruiting manual, "You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth" they quote that verse no less than 5 times - giving the false impression that the Bible has more to say about living on earth forever than it actually does.In fact it is the very first verse of Scripture they use in that book because it has a prominent place in the frontispiece
In discussing this Psalm there are several points that you can gently point out to the reps who come to you.
1 The understanding of this Psalm teeters on a question of word meanings [or semantics] For instance the Heb word "Eretz" occurs 6 times in this Psalm [Vss 3, 9, 11, 22, 29, 34] and how we understand this portion of Scripture will depend on how we view this word here. Unfortunately there is a degree of ambiguity in the Heb because this word can either mean "earth" or "land" and either application is possible in this context.Since the word can indeed have two seperate meanings how then should we translate it in this Psalm? - Earth? or Land? [There are several places that the NWT has "translated" Eretz as "land" - Gen 13:6 for example]
I do not know Heb so I cannot say dogmatically. However, for what its worth I can tell you that I have four seperate Jewish translations in my personal library: JPS, Harkavy, Leeser, and the Tanach, and all four say "land" in this place. I submit that if the Jewish people dont know their own language then we are in trouble! A quick look at the other 72 translations I have seem to say "land" in a proportion of 4 to 1 over "earth" So a translation of "The righteous will inherit the LAND" seems far more probable.
2 Is this Psalm concerned with the FUTURE, especially a future "paradise earth"? When we take a look at Vss 3, 4, 5, 7,we see a consistent pattern of timing. All the verbs used in these verses are in the PRESENT tense - "Trust" "Reside" "Take exquisite in'' etc. Since these are all positioned at the start of the Psalm I feel that that David is trying to say something here. He is not even in a remote way providing us, by way of a convoluted interpretation provided by the WTS, a prophecy about some future that is distant and remote. Rather the present tense as used here tells us that David is more corncerned with very practical values. The issues that he is adressing in this Ps are those of life and death, wisdom and folly, reward and punishment in the here and now. David is concerned, as we should be, with the power, greed and prosperity of the wicked, and the suffering of the righteous. This issue, and its eventual resolution is the subject of this Psalm. We need not feel envious, or self-pity, rather David suggests a wise trust in Yahweh, submitting to His will in the resloution of this dillema.
3 When vs 29 says : ''They [ie the "righteous"] will dwell in it forever" is the Ps referring to ONE PARTICULAR generation who in some unspecified way are going to live forever? Where does it say that? As can be seen "they" is a generic term simply referring to the "righteous" - evidently for as long as the earth survives there will always be "righteous" people who have a title to it. In the very same portion of Scripture which tells us that the earth abides "forever" [Time Indefinite - NWT] It ALSO tells us that "One generation is going and another is coming" [Eccls 1:4] As far as I can tell, the WTS has always emphasized the latter part of this verse. I have yet to see a single verse of Scripture that dictates an earthly and permanent existence for humans of one particular generation. The best that the WTS can do is point to various verses that show the enduring existence of planet earth, and that human beings will be its immutable inhabitants, but nowhere is the WTS interpretation of one interminable generation ever discussed.
We, like every generation who have gone before, and every generation that will ever be, must face the Ultimate Question : Where will we spend eternity? As is inevitable, we will pass off the earthly scene at some point, and another generation will take our place. The whole purpose of the NT is to relate to us how that decision can be made. Ultimately, of course, in the Fulness of Time, Eph 1:10 tells us that there will be one single enduring generation but at that time "all things, including heaven and earth, will be brought together" thus implying a complete accessability to both dimensions for the "righteous" The obscenity of the WTS is to restrict the meaning of this NT verse to an elite group, thus denying their R&F its meaning.
The weakness in the WT system of belief, especially in Psalm 37, is their persistent attitude of ignoring the wider context of what it is truly saying, and depending on quoting selective portions so as to predispose someone to believe in a false hope.For the past five generations, since the 1920s in fact, the WTS has held this promise out, assuring each of those previous inhabitants that THEY specifically were the inheritors of Ps 37. That there are still people out there who cling to this false dream is a testimony, not to faith, but credulity
Hope this helps
Cheers
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DannyBloem
Personally I feel the bible is not conclusive on it.
The whole thing of armageddon does not make sense with only a heavenly hope. Everyone in heaven and nobody on earth? Also the paradise before was created on earth, so that was gods wuill. Makes sense.
But then there is only talk about heavenly hope in the NT
Two groups of people with different hope does not make much sense in the bible too
There are some indication in the OT for paradise on earth.
So, everybody's bet is a good as theirs. Would avoid the subject.
Maybe it is more like the muslims believe: Paradise before was in the heaven, and we were send to the earth to be punished ,
...or maybe there they both do not existsDanny
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stillajwexelder
Jesus himself said the meek will inherit the earth. I find it easier to believe in God than the fact I might go to heaven - I can see earth - an earthly paradise makes more sense to me
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Narkissos
What JWs mostly miss in Psalm 37 and similar texts is that the expectation of inheriting the land/earth is collective: it is for the "meek," "righteous," "poor" and their children (future generations) -- cf. v. 25,26,28. At no point is the idea of individual everlasting life even hinted at.
On other OT "proof-texts" see http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/85470/1.ashx
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Woodsman
Ask them if the 144,00 are meek?
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mdb
Here are some Scriptural arguements against the WTS teachings of a "Paradise on Earth", including some which you have not noted. You may as well be familiar with them also since you cannot be certain as to which passage they may bring up.
MATT 6:10
This verse does not relate to Gen 1:28 or Isaiah 48:15. There is no contextual evidence to connect the scriptures noted together. Matt 6:10 says nothing of a “paradise on earth”. The Watchtower Society is reading a meaning into the text which is not there.PSALM 37:9,11,29
The psalmist, in context, was speaking of something that people in his own lifetime (and following generations) would experience.
The Hebrew word for “earth” (eres) in Psalm 37 often carries the meaning of “land” (Psalm 37:29).
The Hebrew word for “forever” is ad (v.29). In the OT, it often denotes the unforeseeable future. The phrase “dwell in it forever” means “dwell in it from present through the unforeseeable future”, not necessarily for eternity.PSALM 115:16
Psalm 115:16 says God has given the earth to the whole race of man. There are no distinctions or exclusions mentioned (“other sheep” or “anointed class” – 144000). The earth is mortal man’s as a dwelling place and a place to rule (Gen 1:28).
All true believers look to a heavenly destiny, not an earthly destiny. (Eph 2:19;
Phil 3:20; Col 3:1; Heb 3:1; 12:22; 2 Pet 1:10,11; Jn 12:26; Gal 3:29; 4:28-31; Titus 3:7; James 2:5)Also note:
Earth destroyed by fire
2 Peter 3:7,10Heaven and earth shall pass away
Matt 5:18; 24:35; Mk 13:30,31; Lk 21:33; 2 Pet 3:10; Rev 21:1