Dear Leolaia,
I have Rowley's excellent study in my office. But I still don't see a Median kingdom in Dan 2.
-- Augustin --
The Image of Daniel chapter 2
by cyberdyne systems 101 25 Replies latest watchtower bible
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City Fan
Didn't the earliest biblical prophecies about Babylon state that it would be the 'Medes' who would conquer the city?This would have seemed reasonable in the early 6th century BC as Media was the largest power in the area and Nebuchadnezzar even built the 'Median Wall' to keep them out. Unfortunately, before the Medes could strike they were in turn conquered by the Persians under Cyrus. So isn't the insertion by Daniel of the fictitious Darius the Mede between the Babylonian kings and the Persian kings a clumsy way of helping to fulfill bible prophecy?
CF.
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Augustin
peacfulpete,
We are not told why the second kingdom was "inferiour", but "Darius the Mede" does seem to be a (fictious?) Medo-Persian king (Dan 6:8, 12, 15; cf. Dan 5:28). Again, I see no reason for having a Median kingdom between Neo-Babylonia and Alexander's Greece.
-- Augustin --
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Narkissos
Perhaps the critical passage is v. 40: "And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron; just as iron crushes and smashes everything, it shall crush and shatter all these (i.e. the former kingdoms)." To me this suits Alexander's conquest better than the diadochoi's management of Alexander's empire; also, the continuity from the former to the latter seems to be hinted at by the presence of iron in the legs/feet/toes (i.e. down to Antiochos).
Of course, we are not dealing with history but with a very specific representation of it. And the picture of the relationship between Alexander and the diadochoi seems to be fairly consistent in the book (cf. 7:7; 8:5ff,21f; 11:3ff).
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Leolaia
What is more, the reference to the Diadochoi is more clearly to the feet of iron and clay, not the legs of iron. Thus, it states in v. 41 that the feet "are a kingdom that is split in two," i.e. into the Seleucid and Ptolemy lines that are the subject of ch. 11, and v. 42 states that the mixing of iron and clay indicates that "the two will be mixed together in the seed of man," i.e. the marriage alliances between the two kingdoms which are mentioned in 11:6, 17. If the feet are the two powerful Diadochoi kingdoms, then logically the iron legs would pertain to Greece, leaving the silver and bronze kingdoms to represent Media and Persia.
Darius is not designated as "Medo-Persian" in ch. 5-6; he is explicitly a "Mede" ruling over a large kingdom (requiring a staggering 127 satrapies), he is succeeded by "Cyrus the Persian" who is distinguished as a Persian king. The idea of a Median kingdom conquering Babylon is explicit in Jeremiah 51:28 which states that the "king of Media" (singular in the LXX) will invade Babylon "with his governors and officials and all the nations under his rule"; thus Persia would be a vassal of Media, and this is implicit in Daniel which presents a Mede as "king" and the other officials and satraps (which would include Persian officials) are subordinate to him. The author is likely influenced by the expectations in Jeremiah and in Isaiah 13:17-19.
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Augustin
Well, perhaps... Or it could indicate the violent and cruel nature of Syria and the battles between Egypt and Syria (with Judah caught in between)? According to Dan 8 and Dan 11, the diadochoi were new kingdoms. I also think Dan 8 has Media and Persia united. Here, the date given for Dan 8 (ca, 550 BCE) also is important.
-- Augustin --
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Augustin
Leoleia,
The fourth kingdom would be a divided kingdom, yes. I also see the refence to Rev 11:6 and 17. However, where do you see a Median kingdom?
-- Augustin --
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Narkissos
Btw the fantastic empire of "Darius the Mede" with its impossible number of satrapies is very likely a reminiscence of the Persian Darius I Hystapes (522-486 BC) who organised the Persian empire, creating 20 satrapies including the one of Syria-Palestine.
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Augustin
Narkissos,
Are you familiar with Claude Tresmontant? If, so... could you tell us a little bit about him? I know that he was written at least two interesting books on "l'Apocalypse".
-- Augustn --
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Narkissos
Augustin,
Yes, a little. I have his French commentary on Revelation if you have any specific question.
He was a sort of fringe scholar who held ultra-minoritary (if not unique) theories about an original Hebrew NT (or at least a Hebrew substract to the Greek text), very early datations etc. I never found any of his general theses convincing but he makes interesting points here and there.