ezra wrote:
the hebrew word for hands involved not only the hands but the wrists ,if jesus was impaled in his palms the nails would have stripped through and he wouldve fallen,the romans made a practice during impalements to put the nails through the wrists between the two bones to prevent stripping to hold up the people being impaled .the word referring to what jesus was impaled on in greek was stauros =torture stake
Nice try, but misleading. If Jesus was impaled in his palms with his hands raised up (!!) - yes, then they would have stripped thru the flesh and he would have fallen. But not if his arms were stretched outwards, one to each side. This would also explain the passage jojochan referred to, in which "nails" (plural) mentioned. Had his arms been raised over his head, one nail would still be sufficient, whether it was thru the palms or thru the wrists. And one more thing: How long did Jesus live after he was impaled? He lived quite a long time, didn`t he. I`m no expert on cricifixion, but I believe that if you hammer a nail into a persons wrist, even if you have extensive biological knowledge, and know how to avoid the largest veins, it`s still going to bleed a lot. There is a lot of blood flowing thru the veins in the wrists, it`s not for no reason that people kill themselves by severing these veins. Whereas if you impale the palm instead, it will bleed a lot less. And no, stauros doesn`t mean "torture stake". It means stake (no "torture") and cross (crosses of all shapes). You should really read thru Leolaias essay on this, link provided earlier in this thread. What I really dislike about the WTS`s view on this, is how they constantly misrepresent what people/experts etc have said about this, including what the early church fathers had to say about it. Here is what the early church fathers really had to say about this:
LETTER OF BARNABAS
For [the Scripture] says, "And Abraham circumcised ten, and eight, and three hundred men of his household." What, then, was the knowledge given to him in this? Learn the eighteen first, and then the three hundred. The ten and eight are thus denoted—Ten by I [the letter iota], and Eight by H [the lettereta]. You have [the initials of the name of] Jesus. And because the cross was to express the grace [of our redemption] by the letter T [tau], he says also, "Three hundred." He signifies, therefore, Jesus by two letters, and the cross by one . (Chapter 9; brackets in original [A.D. 80]).
And that he might remind them, when assailed, that it was on account of their sins they were delivered to death, the Spirit speaks to the heart of Moses, that he should make a figure of the cross, and of him about to suffer thereon ; for unless they place their trust in him, they shall be overcome for ever. Moses therefore placed one weapon above another in the midst of the hill, and standing upon it, so as to be higher than all the people, he stretched forth his hands, and thus again Israel acquired the mastery. (Chapter 12 [A.D. 80])
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JUSTIN MARTYR
And the human form differs from that of the irrational animals in nothing else than in its being erect and having the hands extended, and having on the face extending from the forehead what is called the nose, through which there is respiration for the living creature; and this shows no other form than that of the cross. (First Apology, chapter 55 [A.D. 151])
When the people . . . waged war with Amalek, and the son of Nave [Nun] by name Jesus [Joshua], led the fight, Moses himself prayed to God, stretching out both hands, and Hur with Aaron supported them during the whole day, so that they might not hang down when he got wearied. For if he gave up any part of this sign, which was an imitation of the cross, the people were beaten, as is recorded in the writings of Moses; but if he remained in this form, Amalek was proportionately defeated, and he who prevailed did so by the cross . (Dialogue With Trypho, chapter 90 [A.D. 150–155 ])
Now, no one could say or prove that the horns of a unicorn represent any other fact or figure than the type that portrays the cross. For the one beam is placed upright, from which the highest extremity is raised up into a horn, when the other beam is fitted on to it, and the ends appear on both sides as horns joined on to the one horn. (Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 91 [A.D. 150–155])
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MINICIUS FELIX
Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners, and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses gilded and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it. We assuredly see the sign of a cross, naturally, in the ship when it is carried along with swelling sails, when it glides forward with expanded oars; and when the military yoke is lifted up, it is the sign of a cross; and when a man adores God with a pure mind, with hands outstretched . (Octavius, chapter 29 [c. A.D. 185–190])
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TERTULLIAN
Every piece of timber which is fixed in the ground in an erect position is a part of a cross, and indeed the greater portion of its mass. But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam, of course, and its projecting seat...Well, then, this modeler, before he did anything else, hit upon the form of a wooden cross, because even our own body assumes as its natural position the latent and concealed outline of a cross. Since the head rises upwards, and the back takes a straight direction, and the shoulders project laterally, if you simply place a man with his arms and hands outstretched, you will make the general outline of a cross. (Ad Nationes, chapter 12 [c. A.D. 197])
Premising, therefore, and likewise subjoining the fact that Christ suffered, he foretold that his just ones should suffer equally with him—both the apostles and all the faithful in succession; and he signed them with that very seal of which Ezekiel spoke: "The Lord said unto me, Go through the gate, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set the mark Tau upon the foreheads of the men." Now the Greek letter tau and our own letter T is the very form of the cross, which he predicted would be the sign on our foreheads in the true Catholic Jerusalem. (Against Marcion, book 3, chapter 22 [A.D. 207])
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HIPPOLYTUS
The Gentiles, that is to say, are built upon Christ, the spiritual rock, which is become the head of the corner. "The spider, that supports itself upon its hands, and is easily caught, dwells in the strongholds of kings." That is, the thief with his hands extended (on the cross), rests on the cross of Christ and dwells in paradise, the stronghold of the three Kings—Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. (Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books on Proverbs [c. A.D. 170–235])
The robe or raiment of Esau denotes the faith and Scripture of the Hebrews with which the people of the Gentiles were endowed. The skins which were put upon his arms are the sins of both peoples, which Christ, when his hands were stretched forth on the cross, fastened to it along with himself. (Fragments from Commentaries on Various Books of Scripture, On Genesis [c. A.D. 170–235])
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ARCHELAUS
There, Moses, when he was assailed, stretched forth his hands and fought against Amalek; and here, the Lord Jesus, when we were assailed and were perishing by the violence of that erring spirit who works now in the just, stretched forth his hands upon the cross, and gave us salvation. (The Acts of the Disputation with the Heresiarach Manes, chapter 44 [c. A.D. 277])
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METHODIUS
Hence it is that our kings, perceiving that the figure of the cross is used for the dissipating of every evil, have made vexillas, as they are called in the Latin language. Hence the sea, yielding to this figure, makes itself navigable to men. For every creature, so to speak, has, for the sake of liberty, been marked with this sign; for the birds which fly aloft form the figure of the cross by the expansion of their wings; and man himself, also, with his hands outstretched, represents the same. (Three Fragments from the Homily on the Cross and Passion of Christ [c. A.D. 300])
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LACTANTIUS
To these grounds it was also added, that having undertaken to suffer and to die, it was befitting that he should be lifted up. Thus the cross exalted him both in fact and in emblem, so that his majesty and power became known to all, together with his passion. For in that he extended his hands on the cross, he plainly stretched out his wings towards the east and the west, under which all nations from either side of the world might assemble and repose. (The Epitome of the Divine Institutes Addressed to His Brother Pentadius, chapter 51, "On the Death of Christ on the Cross" [c. A.D. 311]) ])
Now survey me from head to foot, deserted as I am, and lifted up afar from my beloved mother. . . . Behold my hands pierced with nails, and my arms drawn out, and the great wound in my side; see the blood streaming from it, and my perforated feet, and blood-stained limbs. Bend your knee, and with lamentation adore the venerable wood of the cross. ("A Poem on the Passion of the Lord" [c. A.D. 310–315])
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FIRMICUS MATERNUS
But where, sir, are you going to get yourself adornment and glory in this matter? The horns signify nothing else but the venerable sign of the cross. By one "horn" of this sign, the one which is elongated and vertical, the universe is held up and the earth held fast; and by the juncture of the two horns which go off sidewise the East is touched and the West supported; hence the whole world is stabilized on a solid footing in three parts, since its foundations are held firm by the immortal root of the steadfast work. (The Error of the Pagan Religions 21:4 [c. A.D. 342–346])
