by BlackSwan of Memphis 64 Replies latest jw friends
That they would preach the kingdom of the good news door to door as the only expression of love.
Sorry, just carried away here. Couldn't find the verse for the above.
Forgiveness seems to be a big indicator.
Taking up your 'cross' and following him (not someone else who claims to follow him) is another.
Repentence, too.
Only a few things, really, but they're heavy-duty.
bebu
LK 6:39 He also told them this parable: "Can a blind man lead a blind man? Will they not both fall into a pit? 40 A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher.
(So, you could basically say that a real Christian is like Christ, or--more accurately--is becoming like Christ.)
bebu
John 4:19-26—The woman said to him: “Sir, I perceive you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshiped in this mountain; but YOU people say that in Jerusalem is the place where persons ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, The hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will YOU people worship the Father. 22 YOU worship what YOU do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·si´ah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one arrives, he will declare all things to us openly.” 26 Jesus said to her: “I who am speaking to you am he.”
(1) They are unconcerned with the religious affiliations of others. Specifically, the place where someone worships is immaterial to them.
(2) They are unfettered by racial, economic, nationalistic, or any other classist societal boundaries. This woman was shacking up with some man, had five husbands and was apparently committing adultery on her fifth husband. She was in very low socio-economic standing. According to Jewish law she was a woman, a "sinner", and a Gentile—any of which should have prevented a good Jewish man from talking to her. But Jesus chose her to first reveal himself as Christ.
(3) They do not use God's personal name, but refer to God in the familial sense as "Father" when speaking affectioantely to God and "the Father", "our Father", or "my Father" when speaking affectionately of God to others. On other occasions, they would use the titles "God", "Almighty God", or "Lord" to designate God.
(4) They are very concerned that people know the way to worship acceptably, namely "in spirit and in truth."
Matthew 23:1-39—Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do they do to be viewed by men; for they broaden the [scripture-containing] cases that they wear as safeguards, and enlarge the fringes [of their garments]. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU shut up the kingdom of the heavens before men; for YOU yourselves do not go in, neither do YOU permit those on their way in to go in. 14 ——
15 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one YOU make him a subject for Ge·hen´na twice as much so as yourselves.
16 “Woe to YOU, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is under obligation.’ 17 Fools and blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gold or the temple that has sanctified the gold? 18 Also, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is under obligation.’ 19 Blind ones! Which, in fact, is greater, the gift or the altar that sanctifies the gift? 20 Therefore he that swears by the altar is swearing by it and by all the things on it; 21 and he that swears by the temple is swearing by it and by him that is inhabiting it; 22 and he that swears by heaven is swearing by the throne of God and by him that is sitting on it.
23 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU give the tenth of the mint and the dill and the cumin, but YOU have disregarded the weightier matters of the Law, namely, justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things it was binding to do, yet not to disregard the other things. 24 Blind guides, who strain out the gnat but gulp down the camel!
25 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of plunder and immoderateness. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup and of the dish, that the outside of it also may become clean.
27 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU resemble whitewashed graves, which outwardly indeed appear beautiful but inside are full of dead men’s bones and of every sort of uncleanness. 28 In that way YOU also, outwardly indeed, appear righteous to men, but inside YOU are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29 “Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because YOU build the graves of the prophets and decorate the memorial tombs of the righteous ones, 30 and YOU say, ‘If we were in the days of our forefathers, we would not be sharers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ 31 Therefore YOU are bearing witness against yourselves that YOU are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Well, then, fill up the measure of YOUR forefathers.
33 “Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are YOU to flee from the judgment of Ge·hen´na? 34 For this reason, here I am sending forth to YOU prophets and wise men and public instructors. Some of them YOU will kill and impale, and some of them YOU will scourge in YOUR synagogues and persecute from city to city; 35 that there may come upon YOU all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom YOU murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Truly I say to YOU, All these things will come upon this generation.
37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent forth to her,—how often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks together under her wings! But YOU people did not want it. 38 Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. 39 For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in [the name of the Lord]!’” (the word "Jehovah" removed because it did not appear in the Greek text)
(5) They are not hypocritical.
(6) They do not make a show of their piety or do works to be praised and view by men.
(7) They do not look to any leader other than Jesus.
(8) They want to be gathered to Jesus, they look to him rather than any earthly organization for salvation.
John 14:15-21—“If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; 16 and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU. 18 I shall not leave YOU bereaved. I am coming to YOU. 19 A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but YOU will behold me, because I live and YOU will live. 20 In that day YOU will know that I am in union with my Father and YOU are in union with me and I am in union with YOU. 21 He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.”
John 16:12-16—“I have many things yet to say to YOU, but YOU are not able to bear them at present. 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU. 15 All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares [it] to YOU. 16 In a little while YOU will behold me no longer, and, again, in a little while YOU will see me.”
(9) They appreciate the helper Jesus sent. They look to it for guidance into all truth (see John 4:19-26) and do not credit an organization with having sole claim to either this helper or to truth. They recognize that truth comes from the Father, not from men.
(10) They follow Jesus' commandments, not as a burden but eagerly, including having love among themselves (already mentioned in this thread John 13:34, 35). They are characterized first and foremost by this quality of principled love, not just an outward show of affection but a genuinely heartfelt demonstration of regard for their fellowman.
(11) They recognize the bond created by holy spirit between themselves and their savior and they trust it as a guide.
1 Corinthians 3:5-9—What, then, is A·pol´los? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom YOU became believers, even as the Lord granted each one. 6 I planted, A·pol´los watered, but God kept making [it] grow; 7 so that neither is he that plants anything nor is he that waters, but God who makes [it] grow. 8 Now he that plants and he that waters are one, but each [person] will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9 For we are God’s fellow workers. YOU people are God’s field under cultivation, God’s building.
(12) They reject credit for what God has done.
Romans 8:1-25—Therefore those in union with Christ Jesus have no condemnation. 2 For the law of that spirit which gives life in union with Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For, there being an incapability on the part of the Law, while it was weak through the flesh, God, by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and concerning sin, condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us who walk, not in accord with the flesh, but in accord with the spirit. 5 For those who are in accord with the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those in accord with the spirit on the things of the spirit. 6 For the minding of the flesh means death, but the minding of the spirit means life and peace; 7 because the minding of the flesh means enmity with God, for it is not under subjection to the law of God, nor, in fact, can it be. 8 So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in union with YOU, the body indeed is dead on account of sin, but the spirit is life on account of righteousness. 11 If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make YOUR mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in YOU.
12 So, then, brothers, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live in accord with the flesh; 13 for if YOU live in accord with the flesh YOU are sure to die; but if YOU put the practices of the body to death by the spirit, YOU will live. 14 For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. 15 For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.
18 Consequently I reckon that the sufferings of the present season do not amount to anything in comparison with the glory that is going to be revealed in us. 19 For the eager expectation of the creation is waiting for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. 22 For we know that all creation keeps on groaning together and being in pain together until now. 23 Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves, while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom. 24 For we were saved in [this] hope; but hope that is seen is not hope, for when a man sees a thing, does he hope for it? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we keep on waiting for it with endurance.
(13) They encourage a personal relationship with God through Jesus, rather than a relationship through an earthly organization.
1 Corinthians 7:39, 40—A wife is bound during all the time her husband is alive. But if her husband should fall asleep [in death], she is free to be married to whom she wants, only in [the] Lord. 40 But she is happier if she remains as she is, according to my opinion. I certainly think I also have God’s spirit.
(14) They do not hold back from sharing their opinions, but they recognize that they are simply humans and do not impose their viewpoints on others.
I hope that is a good start, and I hope it helps.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Forgiveness seems to be a big indicator.Taking up your 'cross' and following him (not someone else who claims to follow him) is another.
Repentence, too.
Good points. Any clue where we can find them in the Gospels? (thanks bebu)
meagan
Matthew 6:9-15—“YOU must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified. 10 Let your kingdom come. Let your will take place, as in heaven, also upon earth. 11 Give us today our bread for this day; 12 and forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors. 13 And do not bring us into temptation, but deliver us from the wicked one.’
14 “For if YOU forgive men their trespasses, YOUR heavenly Father will also forgive YOU; 15 whereas if YOU do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will YOUR Father forgive YOUR trespasses.”
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
yes AuldSoul it truly does!
Thank you!
Think about it, we read how often what "God requires of Us" as told to us by men. So it's pretty safe to say, that a Christian is not id'ed by a denomination, by a style of dress, by a beard or no beard, by a bookbag or a lack of...
I was thinking about this last night...
When I was a jw I would have thought that what made the jws the only true Christian religion are the very things that cannot be supported by scriptures. 607 or no 607, that would not be an id'ing factor of a Christian or group of Christians. (does that make sense?)
meagan
BlackSwan of Memphis,
Yes, I feel the same way. The things that Witnesses take as signs they have the truth aren't offered as proof of true worship anywhere in the Bible. The "worldwide preaching" of the Good News does not require a visible earthly organization if you credit the holy spirit with the ability to teach and to guide people to speak; the preaching work is never pointed to as an indicator of who is a true Christian.
The one direct mark of Christians is John 13:34, 35 and it speaks of a plurality of singular disciples. They would not be known for their grand organizational skills, their Pharisaical judgmentalism, their restrictive requirements, or their shunning of those who are not like them. Rather, they would be known for adhering to and striving for a surpassing way, for the greatest gift of the spirit:
1 Corinthians 12:27-13:13—Now YOU are Christ’s body, and members individually. 28 And God has set the respective ones in the congregation, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers; then powerful works; then gifts of healings; helpful services, abilities to direct, different tongues. 29 Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform powerful works, do they? 30 Not all have gifts of healings, do they? Not all speak in tongues, do they? Not all are translators, are they? 31 But keep zealously seeking the greater gifts. And yet I show YOU a surpassing way.Respectfully,
13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a sounding [piece of] brass or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophesying and am acquainted with all the sacred secrets and all knowledge, and if I have all the faith so as to transplant mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others, and if I hand over my body, that I may boast, but do not have love, I am not profited at all.
4 Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5 does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6 It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we have partial knowledge and we prophesy partially; 10 but when that which is complete arrives, that which is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe, to think as a babe, to reason as a babe; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the [traits] of a babe. 12 For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Some scriptures in my mind for right now in history.
1. NWT Ez. 9:4 ......"And you must put a mark on the forheads of the men that are sighing and groaning over all the detestable things that are being done in the midst of it."
2. NWT Mic. 4:3..." .....And they will have to beat their swords int plowshares and their spears into pruning shears........and they will learn war no more."
3. NWT Rev. 20:4 ".....Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor it's image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand and they came to life......"
Black Swan....it's seem important now to understand these things..
Star Moore,
I am curious why you believe those verses are "important now" to understand.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul
Thank you Auld Soul for your thoughts, I really appreciate them.
The one main, biggest, thing that id's a Christian, is the love.
I was reading through the sermon the mount last night, and through it all, the biggest thing that reverberates through it all and through the gospels, is love.
You are right in that the WTS has that pharasaical tone to it.
A true Christian is NOT id'ed by the ability inability to prophesy. They are id'ed by their love.
607 is a non issue to me at this point. Beacause ultimately the WTS lacks greatly in the one area that counts the most:
love
meagan
