How would you respond to this?

by openminded 31 Replies latest jw friends

  • openminded
    openminded

    I got this letter today from a friend of my dad who I have not seen in years. Please respond to any or all of it as you see fit. It pretty much sums up Witness mentality. Any help you could lend here would be appreciated greatly. Thanks in Advance OM

    Dear OM,

    this note is quite long. If it comes compressed I can send an attachment
    with the letter in .rft format you can read with most word processors.

    I have been chatting with your mom on the internet. She has found a new toy,
    the Internet, and is having a ball it seems. You probably know Mary and I
    visited with your folks about two years ago on our way to Washington and
    Oregon. It was really nice to see them after all this time. I wondered how
    you and your brother and sisters were doing. Kay told me that you were having
    trouble with the Witnesses as an organization an regretted being a Witnesses
    yourself, or something to that effect . She said you considered yourself a
    slave and thought they had misled you. If this is NOT how you feel let me
    know what the true story is. But in the context of this note I will use that
    as a basis for discussion.

    I feel for you on this subject for I have felt that way too at times. There
    were times I felt the WTS was totally out to lunch. Many of JW's opponents
    also try to imply the WTS is misleading its members. Are they really? Is it
    possible that theirs is an incorrect perspective. Does the WTS have Jehovah's
    backing or not? That is a key question.

    Kay said you were going to college now. (What are you taking?) College was at
    one time discouraged and that may also be a point of contention with you.
    Some elders today still feel that we should not go to college. However, the
    WTS has not really said that a person can not go to college. It really is a
    personal choice since the Bible does not prohibit college. Have you
    considered carefully why the WTS discourages it? For one simple reason, in
    college people subject themselves to an environment that is anti-Christian.
    Not only are God denying doctrines taught, evolution is a good example, but
    centers for higher education discourage belief in God subtly but emphatically
    and pressure young people to conform to their view. College also encourages
    independent thinking, a view that allows people pick and choose what they
    believe. That has led many to conclude that almost all things are okay and
    that people have the right to set their own standard of right and wrong.
    Since Adam and Eve this has been the trend but did their independent thinking
    for their good or harm?

    For just these few points you can see why this is unhealthy environment. Can
    a Christian subject himself to such an environment and remain unaffected?
    Many young JWs have succeeded but many have not. To succeed one must have a
    very strong personality, one that will not go along with the God denying or
    defying values taught there.

    The question is whether you are looking for an excuse to turn from God to
    some other path or do you feel some other path is correct while the Witnesses
    are wrong? If you have a strong faith in God then you will determine what he
    requires and what standards he sets and attempt to conform to them. If you
    want to be independent from God, making our own choices, you must ask
    yourself if it is safe to do this? If we are living in the last part of the
    last days, as prophesy seems to indicate, is it really worth the risk? If we
    fall from God's favor now, will we have time to recover? Will we even try to?
    Are we spiritually strong enough to weather the storm? Some make it through
    college undeterred but some come away confused or turn away from the faith.
    Where are you really trying to accomplish? This is not a trivial question
    since it is a life or death matter, for you and your family.

    The world we are living in is changing so fast that it is hard to keep up.
    When I was studying in the early 1970s no JW would consider going to college.
    But then finding a job without a college education was much easier than today
    and good paying jobs were available. But even today good, well paying jobs
    are available without a college education. But even good paying professionals
    are at risk as you have noticed by all the layoffs.

    Another problem I noticed is that many jobs that require a college education,
    professional type jobs, require you to work overtime without additional pay.
    Employers can expect professionals to work overtime and that takes time away
    from family and religious activities. As a programmer I worked up to 18 hours
    a day and did not get paid overtime. One year I worked 33% overtime and much
    of that was in a six month period. I was tired all the time, missed many
    meetings, did not have time to study the Bible and it affected my home life
    adversely. So a professional job may not be as great as you imagine. Take
    your dad for example. He has a good, high paying job, but has it made him
    truly happy? The Bible shows that people that have a modest job and put God
    first are happier. Ever wonder why that is?

    Blue collar jobs may require overtime but that is discouraged because the
    employer has to pay more for the work done, so they are reluctant to make
    people work longer days. Also, some blue collar jobs pay as well, if not
    better than, professional jobs. Masons and plumbers got paid more than I did
    and I was making over $60,000 a year.

    When you consider that you can start to see why they encourage vocational
    training rather than the longer expense of time and money that college
    requires. Many people are financially destitute after paying the high fees
    for college and it can take a decade to recover. With this in mind, is the
    society's recommendation really wrong? Does it make the WTS a slave master?
    Can you say they do not really care about you or are they trying to help you
    take a safer approach to financial security? Are they really bad "parents"
    for trying to protect us?

    Lets look at this from another point of view. Many think the WTS is
    misleading people doctrinally as well. If you were responsible for extracting
    people from an immoral world, teaching them what God requires and aiding them
    to continue to follow God's requirements for the rest of their life, what
    sort of parameters or boundaries would you define? Would you let them do
    whatever they wanted, let them choose for themselves what to do and suggest
    parameters that would allow people pursue wealth and material benefits? OR
    would you suggest a simpler more modest and safer course that would allow
    ample time for family and spiritual things? What really are the most
    important things to concentrate on today? How can we most wisely use our time
    and resources? If this world is really coming to an end of what benefit world
    a worldly course provide?

    The answer is obvious but how would YOU go about directing a large crowd if
    you were responsible for six million people? What safety factors would you
    define? How restrictive would you get? Would you be cautious or throw caution
    to the wind? Remember you are responsible for six million lives and God is
    holding you accountable. Not only that but you are responsible for warning
    six billion other people that a storm is coming and you also have to prepare
    them to survive it. How would you feel if that responsibility were on your
    shoulders? What would you do?

    You have a son. Do you allow him to make all of his own decisions? Or do you
    set parameters, looking our for his future welfare? What do you want him to
    turn out like? The rest of the world or someone who worships Jehovah? If you
    believe this world is really coming to an end then having faith in someone
    that can save you starts to become increasingly important.

    Consider too that you are going to have a bunch of critics, who think they
    know better how to get the job done, telling you that what you are doing is
    wrong and too restrictive? Frankly, I would not want such a job. Would you? I
    doubt that I could handle the pressure. But a small group of anointed men
    have taken that responsibility on their shoulders. Wow! What a job!!! Why did
    they do that? Could it be because God selected them and gave them the
    responsibility and also the latitude to carry out his instructions in a
    reasonable way, a way that not all will agree with?

    There must be 6 billion opinions on how to worship God or if there is a God
    or which religion is teaching truth. So what would you choose to focus on if
    you were chosen to lead this group? Others may do it differently, but would
    they do it better? Christendom and non-Christian religions are doing it
    differently but it certainly is not better. You will have to admit the
    governing body is succeeding in developing better people while the rest of
    the world is floundering. If God is not behind them can you explain why that
    is?

    What really is important today? An education? Money and all the stuff it can
    buy? Free will? Sex? Marriage? High paying job? Friends? Jehovah? What is
    reasonable and what is restrictive? What is overly restrictive and what is
    prudent? The world is eagerly pursuing a course, actually many courses, but
    are they happier for it? Not if I interpret what I see on the news correctly.
    More and more people are unhappy and are totally lost as to what path to
    take. As a result more and more resort to violence due to sheer frustration.
    Marriages are breaking up at warp speed. The world is looking for happiness
    in all the wrong places. Are they finding it? Actually there are so many
    problems facing mankind that it totally baffles any who would try to provide
    a remedy.

    But now look at JWs. They have lower paying jobs, go to meetings all the time
    and go out and try to find other that might like to adopt such an austere
    life style. Are they confused? Are they unhappy? Are they dying from AIDS?
    Getting divorced? No! They apply the counsel from God's Word that the WTS is
    providing in their literature. Are they really worse off than the rest of the
    world? Isn't it true that they are happier and more well adjusted than people
    in the world? So were they deceived or enlightened?

    If you are looking to the world for happiness I don't think you will find
    that the world is happier than we are. Are you truly happier now that you
    have adopted a critical view of the WTS? Quite the opposite probably. If you
    really look at the world you will see a bunch of people running around doing
    this or that trying to fill their lives with something that will give them
    purpose and make them happy. Isn't it really telling that they never achieve
    happiness? Why not? Could it be that they are not following the right advice?
    And consider that if the Bible is really true and everlasting life and
    paradise is a possibility, is the worlds approach really justified? Will it
    prevail?

    Now lets take a different tact. If the WTS organization is not really doing
    God's will then who is? Does it make sense that God would have an
    organization in the last days that would lead people to the road to life or
    not? If so then which organization is God using? Frankly there is not another
    organization that is collecting people out of the world and teaching them
    what God requires. I came out of Christendom and know they are not doing this
    job. Preachers get on TV and tell people what they want to hear, "Believe in
    Jesus and you will be saved." That is pretty much the content of what is
    taught and that is all that people want to hear. Don't bother then with
    morality issues, they don't want to hear that. Don't tell them to live modest
    lives, they don't want to hear that either. People want to get all the gusto
    out of lives they can. Why? Because they really do not have the faith in the
    future God defines, that there is going to be a paradise and people will have
    everlasting lives. Do you really know any non-JWs that live their life in
    such a way that indicates he believes in paradise or everlasting life? I
    doubt it. They live their lives like this one is all there is.

    The WTS is teaching us to love others, even enemies. Had Christendom done
    that there would not have been two world wars. JWs are taught a high moral
    code. Do you find that in any other religion? People live together and others
    pronounce themselves homosexuals and others practice illegal business
    practices but continue to be accepted, respected members of their religions.
    Does that make sense to you? Can the world ever achieve happiness under such
    circumstances? We are taught prejudice is wrong, whether racial, or ethnic or
    national. What other religion truly brings people together from all these
    backgrounds peacefully?

    You see JWs or the WTS as imperfect. What do you expect? God has been using
    imperfect people to guide imperfect people for millennium. God has always
    done that and the direction the leader takes was not always beneficial. Moses
    did not do everything right, did he? David made decisions that caused people
    died in war. Did that mean David did not have God's support or that God was
    not really using him? Of course not. Did God correct matters over time.
    You've got it! Even thought the members of the governing body make mistakes
    or restrict us more than we consider necessary, does not mean God is not
    using them today. Think long and hard about that question. And have you
    noticed that they dol make changes along the line that bring us more in tune
    with the Bible or with the times we are living in. But they never compromise
    God's laws to do that, but Christendom compromises and so do their followers.
    Which course do you really want for you and your family?

    BUT, if God is using them then just when can we follow and when do we refuse?
    What does God expect us to do? Can we really pick and choose what we want to
    do or should we be obedient to those taking the lead? This is an especially
    important question, in this independent thinking world, when we see evidence
    that God really is backing them and the evidence really supports that
    conclusion.

    Take a look at the world today. Do we see people doing what they are told or
    is everyone trying to decide what they want to do? People today are more
    independent than ever before. NO ONE wants to be told what to do. Few want to
    do what God says but what to set their own standards. In part that is why we
    have over 25,000 religions based on Christ. People are looking for a religion
    that will let then think they are saved while not doing anything to warrant
    salvation That is also why we have so much unrest and immorality in the
    world. People want to do it their way. The DO NOT want to knuckle down and do
    what God requires.

    Where do you fit in all of this? Are you really trying to do what God wants
    or do you want to do your own thing? Or are you trying to do both? Do you
    really feel the WTS is misleading you or is it that you do not want to follow
    their lead? Can't you see what the WTS is trying to do for you? Can't you see
    their concern? Do you really think they want to restrict you beyond reason?
    Make you miserable? A Christian has restrictions that are imposed by God but
    we make decisions on how to live our lives. Some conform and some do not.
    Would we be better off without laws? Could we make better laws ourselves?
    Even those who do conform do not all do it the same way because there are a
    variety of valid methods. College might allow you to better support your
    family and provide greater measure of financial security. But if college
    makes you so independent that you question God or leave his organization will
    you really benefit. College or not, you get to choose but at the same time we
    must serve Jehovah. The latter leads to everlasting life but the former will
    not. You are a grown man, you get to choose what you do, choose what you do
    wisely.

    Please do not be too critical of the WTS. Try and appreciate the immensity of
    the task they have and the inherent responsibility. They are responsible for
    the lives of millions while you are only responsible for the life of you and
    your family. Give them a break. They are doing the best they can. If they
    seen restrictive try to see why they would be so. When you make arbitrary
    decisions that affect the future of your family don't you set parameters you
    feel are valid? In time will you disagree with some of them and change them?
    And truly some will not have been necessary but you would have thought they
    were good ideas at the time. As you boy grows the restrictions will be
    reduced or changed.

    The most important thing to strive for is doing what God wants us to do. We
    do that by praying and studying God's word and associating with people who
    are successfully walking with God. The world has many ideas but they have not
    been successful nor can their path lead us to life or happiness. God can and
    will.

    David had doubts and made mistakes. I had the Bible Highlights this week and
    I focused on Psalms 36:1-9. David points out the steps that a person takes
    when they turn away from Jehovah. In verses 5-9 he discusses the attributes
    that God has that will cause us to stick to him or return to him if we have
    strayed.

    If I have not really ticked you off, I hope not, I would like to hear from
    you. If you would like to discuss any of this or have another view or other
    questions you would like to discuss please sent me a note. If I can help I
    would be glad to. As I said at the beginning I have felt much as you do but
    have over time realized that the direction the WTS is providing is better
    than I could conjure up or any I could get elsewhere. It took a long while
    for me to realize that.

    Be careful while you settle any issues you have. If you turn from Jehovah you
    may be shooting yourself in the foot. So be wise and consider your steps
    closely. If the WTS is backed by God and you oppose it will God look with
    favor on you and save you? Will he even help you make a wise choice? Are you
    absolutely positive that the WTS is out to lunch or could you be mistaken?
    This is a life or death issue and each day the time left is reduced. Can you
    truly make a case that the WTS is not backed by God, that they are truly
    misleading you or making you a slave? If you think you can make that case I
    would be interested to see how you develop that conclusion. If you present it
    I will try to poke holes in it. But hey, is there really anything wrong with
    someone checking your experiment? Mixing the wrong chemicals could cause an
    explosion.

    If you do not have anyone there to discus this with, talking it over with me
    might be beneficial. I won't put you down for your views but I will be direct
    and I will try to show that the teachings and directions of the WTS are being
    backed by Jehovah. It can be hard to work through this. I have done it a
    number of times myself and got stronger every time. I have read apostate
    material, recognized it for what it is and refuted it. The only organization
    that consistently had my interests at heart was the WTS. If you are not sure
    and would like to discuss it I am here. I will take whatever time needed to
    help you. But if you do not want to discuss it just send me a note and tell
    me to stuff it.

    Hang in there. Life in this world is not easy but you can make it. You can
    lead your family into a wonderful new world. Whatever road you take ask
    Jehovah for direction and you will be successful.

    Christian love,

  • sleepy
    sleepy

    Hello openminded

    That letter is so spooky it sounds just like one I had a while back from a friend of mine.

    He goes on a lot about how the society is trying its best and how no one else is doing a work like them etc.

    I think he is very concerned about you and genuinly has your best interests at heart.

    He makes the same point that my friend tried to make about how apostates cliam the org is out to mislead its members.

    I tried to make the point that they may not directly lie about things but that they withhold information or do not present all the facts about a subject when aurguing its validity.Facts which could alter witnesses views on their validity.

    Why does the society never review counter aurguments or present objective dicussions in the magazines.
    They often make it sound like there is no counter aurgument to the points they raise when there are .It doesn't matter whether the oppossing points are valid or not but it matters that information isn't presented in a one sided manner.
    Most poeple don't have the inclination or the time to check for themselves whether what the society says is correct or not and recieve virtually all their information about the bible and the world in general through the magazines.

    Does your friend realise how the governing body makes decisions.
    Learning that it was on a voting basis shook my cofidence in the GB.
    Is not withholding information on how they decide on doctrine dishonest and misleading?

    How many people would stick to the GB's rulings if they knew that the vote was not unanimous and that some GB memmbers disagreed with it.
    And also that some very important issues had been challenged years ago by GB memmbers and had only recently been changed when it was obvious they were wrong.
    How many people would so faithfully follow magazine articles if they had the authors name stamped on them?

    Can your friend explain in which way exactly they are used by God?
    Does god direct the voting .If so why have decisions been reversed when certain GB memmbers have died.Why is it that when they make mistakes they are just human but when we reject their authority they are God's chosen organisation.

    Your friend may not realise that just producing good people isn't even considered by the society as enough proof of a religion being favoured by God.

    And saying if the "JW's aren't directed by God then who is ?" is not a valid aurgument as there may or may not be a God or a chosen religion etc
    The issues of whether JW's are right stand soley on the evidence.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    My God! I had to quit about halfway thru. I'll try and finish it later.

    This smooth sumbitch is a master at making his own arrogance sound reasonable. But arrogant he is!

    I would not expect much from this guy in the way of reason. He is actually worse than the Societies writers, from what I can see. At least they KNOW they are going to be called on their shit.

    My response might just be this: Friend, you illustrated this way: "Remember you are responsible for six million lives and God is
    holding you accountable". Therein lies the rub; how completely arrogant can anyone be to believe that?

    ...and leave it at that.

  • MrMoe
    MrMoe

    WT is imperfect, huh? No sh*t. How the hell can you make false prophecies, be imperfect and still think you are God's divine channel?

    Or, be responsible for the deaths of many (immunizations, Rogaine shot, etc..) Look at how the WTS is with other religions! They claim birds will pick their dead bodies in the street because they don't know the "truth!" How the heck is it truth if it's all a load of crap! JW's bash Catholics for being wrong in the past, but at least the Pope apologized when they were wrong.

    This stuff burns me up. They can't see it right in front of thier faces. Whatever.

  • LDH
    LDH

    OM, I tried really hard to read it. I got about one fourth of the way through, though, and couldn't go any further.

    I am sickenced at thier smooth talk. His letter reads just like a Watchtower article. He is recycling arguments that have been used for decades now, and some still believe them.

    I am so disgusted lately, I'm sorry I can't offer any assistance in dealing with them.

    How about a short note back that says, "Do you really think the Son of Jehovah, who had nowhere to lay his head, needs a manmade organization of some 60 corporations to spread his message of love and tolerance?"

    I told you all, this is war.

  • indireneed
    indireneed

    It is people like these who truly show the Watchtower in a good light as opposed to the majority of its members who are just ignorant and followers. While completely disagreeing with what he wrote, he is obviously convinced of 'the truth' and is the kind of person that finds new recruits every day.

    I feel that it is very difficult to counter any argument where half-truths are used as proof. A typical example is the choice between serving Jehovah as a Witness or serving Satan as any of the other religions that engulf 99.9% of the world. This is a fake choice imposed by an authoritarian organization. The whole Protestant Reformation was about individuality and the right to have one's own interpretation. The Catholic Church (at least historically) has represented unbending traditions and doctrine, and the Witnesses have taken up this cry with enthusiasm, while picking apart the Catholics for their past. And how can one argue against one who is inspired but imperfect? The biggest problem with talking with a Witness is that they don't understand the world. They don't believe anyone else reads the Bible, and they honestly believe that all others will be killed shortly just for not being a Witness (aka being one of Satan's brood).

    When presented with a choice: live or die, one chooses live. This is the choice presented by the GB. When presented with an unknown and forced to find your own path, many prefer to have their limits set and turn over their freedom to anyone willing to do that within one's mental bounds. The Witnesses are sinking back into ideas and thoughts that have been erased by much of modern history (through the Reformation and through the ideals behind democracy), and perhaps there is a place for this. However, God is not the right reason or argument. One should stand on his or her own laurels, not on 'divine providence'. This is unarguable and unprovable - the classic attack against evolution.

    I would probably point to the Deuteronomy Prophet Test as proof that God is not with them, although this will fail miserably with an experienced Witness. However, it gives you a point to fall back to in retreat when he comes on the full court press. He sounds incredibly clever and very convincing, and thus one must have a fall-back argument to use in defense in order to escape without concessions.

    I hope this helps.

  • slipnslidemaster
    slipnslidemaster

    I have to admit, within the first couple of paragraphs I wondered what direction he was going to take. He better be careful, because in the wrong context those paragraphs could get him in trouble.

    But the long and short of that letter is: BARF.

    My response? Very short, very happy, very courteous. But under no circumstances give any ground. In fact, I'm starting to think that one of the only "attacks" that will work on JW's is to be happy and polite.

    Maybe throw in one or two quick easy arguments for fun. How about "what blood fraction is ok to take today? How many Witnesses died a spiritual death in Jehovah's eyes when that fraction wasn't ok?"

    Slipnslidemaster: "I don't know why we are here, but I'm pretty sure that it is not in order to enjoy ourselves."
    - Ludwig Wittgenstein

  • bboyneko 2
    bboyneko 2
    Kay said you were going to college now. (What are you taking?) College was at one time discouraged and that may also be a point of contention with you. Some elders today still feel that we should not go to college. However, the WTS has not really said that a person can not go to college. It really is a personal choice since the Bible does not prohibit college.

    Yet this guy goes on for about 177 words after this to show why college is wrong. This is typical of JW writing. Most questions from readers in the watchtower start off: 'The bible is unclear on this matter' or 'the bible is silent on this matter' or 'this is a personal choice.' This is followed by HOWEVER and they go on to try to prove that it is wrong, despite already stating the bible says nothing about it and it is a personal choice. If he was genuine in the above statement he wouldn't try to prove college as evil. He dosen't want to say the society was wrong in condemning college.

    If you want to be independent from God, making our own choices, you must ask yourself if it is safe to do this? If we are living in the last part of the last days, as prophesy seems to indicate, is it really worth the risk?

    The ol' gun to the head. This is misleading logic. Who said you are rebbeling against god? The JW's assosiate society and governing body as the same as god. This is ridiculous. I remember arguing with a sister (don't ask how this started) about how oral and anal sex shouldn't be condemned..I asked her 'show me in the bible where it is condemned' and she said 'Its in the watchtower' and im like thats not in the bible though and she says 'Its the same thing!'

    I beleive god, if he or she or they exsist, would never put a gun to your head in beleiving in him or not. I think you would be judged on your conduct to fellow humans regardless of your beleifs.

    Oh god...now this guys goes on for another 470 words why college is wrong again. Why is he so critical of college? It seems either 1) he thinks you left because of college or 2) he has a grudge against it, possibly because he is now a low-paid window washer and resents those who can actually earn more than $15,000 a year.

    Lets look at this from another point of view. Many think the WTS is
    misleading people doctrinally as well. If you were responsible for extracting people from an immoral world, teaching them what God requires and aiding them to continue to follow God's requirements for the rest of their life, what sort of parameters or boundaries would you define? Would you let them do whatever they wanted, let them choose for themselves what to do and suggest parameters that would allow people pursue wealth and material benefits?

    Noone is reposnsible for that. Each one is responsible for their own faith and their own spirituality. This kind of thinking leads to gestapo-like religious regiems such as the JW. They beleive their flock must be kept under control at all times at all costs.

    The answer is obvious but how would YOU go about directing a large crowd if you were responsible for six million people?

    Many world governments have already solved this dilema at a much grander scale. There are judicial systems, health care systems, education, road maintenance, hospitals, etc. If you were to turn the JW's into a government in charge of a country, it would be classified as communist or fascist. It has already been determined that to rule a large amount of people crushing all opposition and rulign with a ruthless iron fist will only cause the government to fall.

    Remember you are responsible for six million lives and God is
    holding you accountable. Not only that but you are responsible for warning six billion other people that a storm is coming and you also have to prepare them to survive it. How would you feel if that responsibility were on your shoulders? What would you do?

    The governing body, in their senility, have already decided they are these people. This is a grand self-delusion to beleive god has chosen you without any evidence. Does he really need you? Does he really need printing presses? Does he need circuit assemblies and watchtowers?

    You have a son. Do you allow him to make all of his own decisions? Or do you set parameters, looking our for his future welfare? What do you want him to turn out like? The rest of the world or someone who worships Jehovah?

    Forcing him to be that is exactly what most JW do, and the children leave. You can set some moral guidlines for your child, but ultimatley he or she will make his or her own descisions and beleive what they want. Forcing to become a clone will do no good. Would you suddenly stop talking to your child if he or she dosent share your political viewpoint? Oh wait the JW already do that evil practise.

    If you believe this world is really coming to an end then having faith in someone that can save you starts to become increasingly important.

    As has everyone at the dawn of every century since the dawn of time. The end is nigh! Why do we need faith in anyone other than god? Why do we need to join a club?

    Consider too that you are going to have a bunch of critics, who think they know better how to get the job done, telling you that what you are doing is wrong and too restrictive? But a small group of anointed men have taken that responsibility on their shoulders.

    It is arrogant and hypocritical to say you are 'only human' and at the same time dismiss all critisism as evil and wrong and from satan. Beleiving your are infallible is wrong.

    Wow! What a job!!! Why did they do that? Could it be because God selected them and gave them the responsibility and also the latitude to carry out his instructions in a reasonable way, a way that not all will agree with?

    Yup, god appeared to them and said 'hey, old dudes, wanna govern my chosen people? you do? great, here is a printing factory and some land in new york. have fun. Im gonna go play golf' has any JW considered also the much higher likleyhood that they are just men who only beleive god chose them to lead and have no evidence to back it up? How can the JW say the governing body is simply human and makes mistakes and also claim them to be directed by god?

    You will have to admit the governing body is succeeding in developing better people while the rest of the world is floundering. If God is not behind them can you explain why that is?

    Oh yeah, splitting families apart and teaching hate is making better people. Never lifting a finger to aid fellow humans in need, such as the homeless and poor and hungry is 'etter people' indeed.

    What really is important today? An education? Money and all the stuff it can buy? Free will? Sex? Marriage? High paying job? Friends? Jehovah? What is reasonable and what is restrictive? What is overly restrictive and what is prudent? The world is eagerly pursuing a course, actually many courses, but
    are they happier for it? Not if I interpret what I see on the news correctly.

    Again, attacking college. This dude is starting to sound like the unabomber.

    But now look at JWs. They have lower paying jobs, go to meetings all the time and go out and try to find other that might like to adopt such an austere life style. Are they confused? Are they unhappy? Are they dying from AIDS? Getting divorced? No!

    They may not be dying from aids but they are bleeding to death from not taking blood. They are getting divorced, and also staying in torturous marriages that benefit noone. And they are very unhappy. Wearing a smile means nothing if there is nothing behind it.

    Are you truly happier now that you have adopted a critical view of the WTS? Quite the opposite probably.

    hehehe. He almost sounds curious here, I sense that he is saying all of this to help him feel better about talking to you, but I think he shares some doubts by his tone and is in a way asking you what you know. This guy is actually asking for help if I read him correctly.

    If the WTS organization is not really doing God's will then who is? Does it make sense that God would have an
    organization in the last days that would lead people to the road to life or not?

    God's will in the new testamnent as preached by jesus (gods will is a little different when the apostles preached it after his death, their message was salvation through the death and ressurection of jesus, jesus message was never about his death but about accepting gods kingdom and to obey two simple rules, love your neighbor and love god)
    His message was never to establish a man-headed organization.

    Frankly there is not another
    organization that is collecting people out of the world and teaching them what God requires.

    What god requires is a hotly debated topic not satisfactorly explained by any one as of yet. We don't seem to have a clue.

    The WTS is teaching us to love others, even enemies.

    This guy really is naive.

    We are taught prejudice is wrong, whether racial, or ethnic or
    national. What other religion truly brings people together from all these backgrounds peacefully?

    By turning them into clones. This is an artifical solution. People are diverse by nature, making them all conform to one standard is unhealthy and wrong.

    You see JWs or the WTS as imperfect. What do you expect? God has been using imperfect people to guide imperfect people for millennium. God has always done that and the direction the leader takes was not always beneficial. Moses did not do everything right, did he? David made decisions that caused people died in war. Did that mean David did not have God's support or that God was not really using him? Of course not. Did God correct matters over time.

    Isn't it far more likley these men were not guided by god at all?

    Can we really pick and choose what we want to do or should we be obedient to those taking the lead? This is an especially important question, in this independent thinking world, when we see evidence
    that God really is backing them and the evidence really supports that
    conclusion.

    The evidence is imaginary. Faults are simply brushed aside. They certainly are TAKING the lead. None of us voted them in. They jus sorta declared themselves leaders.

    College might allow you to better support your
    family and provide greater measure of financial security.
    But if college makes you so independent that you question God or leave his organization will you really benefit. College or not, you get to choose but at the same time we must serve Jehovah. The latter leads to everlasting life but the former will not.

    Godamn!!!! This guy hates college? Whats the talley for how much he has bashed college while at the same time stating there is nothing wrong with it?

    If I have not really ticked you off, I hope not, I would like to hear from you. If you would like to discuss any of this or have another view or other questions you would like to discuss please sent me a note. If I can help I would be glad to. As I said at the beginning I have felt much as you do but have over time realized that the direction the WTS is providing is better than I could conjure up or any I could get elsewhere. It took a long while for me to realize that.

    Again, he has doubts. They have not been erased. He is prime for a fall. This email is begging for you to send him more detailed falacies from the society.

    Can you truly make a case that the WTS is not backed by God, that they are truly misleading you or making you a slave? If you think you can make that case I would be interested to see how you develop that conclusion. If you present it I will try to poke holes in it. But hey, is there really anything wrong with someone checking your experiment? Mixing the wrong chemicals could cause an
    explosion.

    Yup, he is an apostate in the closet. He is asking for apostate info :) Give 'im what he asks for and prepare to meet his guy on our forum within a year.

    I have read apostate material, recognized it for what it is and refuted it. [\quote]

    hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....closet apostate!!! RING RING..who is it? CLOSET APOSTATE.

    [quote]Hang in there. Life in this world is not easy but you can make it. You can lead your family into a wonderful new world. Whatever road you take ask Jehovah for direction and you will be successful.

    Christian love,
    Apostate waiting to happen

    He is sincere, but he is subconsciensly asking for help from you. Give it to him!
    -Dan

  • kilroy
    kilroy

    Haysoos de Krrrrristo! I felt like I was reading a Watchtower!

    Krap krap krap! (Thanks Tallyman for the k's)

    This was a "note"?

    Love, Kilroy

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Openminded: The letter is most typical of JW mentality. I find this statement in the letter a very common theme:

    "Now lets take a different tact. If the WTS organization is not really doing God's will then who is?"

    The question appears on the surface to be valid, but that is because it presupposes that there is some 'organization' or religion somewhere that must be telling the truth and must be God's means of communication and direction to Christians.

    However, the question ignores a more basic and relevant issue. If the Watch Tower organization is not doing God's will, then IT by any definition is not God's organization, and thus must be eliminated from any further consideration by truthseekers.

    Now, whether God even has an organization, and what that might be can be and is an entirely different issue. It may be that there is some church or organization out there that God uses, either as one of many or exclusively, or that he simply works through individuals, mono-e-mono. - Amazing

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