listing of authorities and their date for the fall of Jerusalem

by M.J. 128 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  dozy

  
  The 364 "wrong" economists is a well-known account which has numerous web pages devoted to it: - eg

  http://www.adamsmith.org/blog/index.php/blog/individual/money_money_money_always_and_everywhere/

  What it illustrates is the capability of an overwhelming body of "expert" opinion to come to an erroneous judgement or opinion , based on peer pressure , prejudice or other factors. The WTS admit openly that 607 BCE is not a date that most historians would accept - the "Kingdom Come" book is clear on this. The methadology as to how JWs come to this date is clearly set out - you either accept it (it is quite fundamental to witness doctrine - eg 1914) or you don't.
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  Quotes

  dozy, although I appreciate your skepticism, your comparison is flawed.
  
  Those economists were, essentially, trying to predict the future. This discussion deals with historians talking about the historical past. What has happened in the past is fixed, there is one "right" answer.
  
  If you have ever watched CNBC or MSNBC or PBS's NBR, you will appreicate that for every economist's opinion, there is another economist with the exact opposite opinion. Only time will tell which is right and which is wrong. I'll bet if you did any research, you would see that the opinion of those 364 economists was met with an equally large (although perhaps less vocal?) group of economists that predicted the opposite. (Edit to add: there are/were MANY more economists in the world at that time than just 364!)
  
  To make a more appropriate use of your analogy, imagine if we gathered 1000 economists today (including those 364 that predicted disaster) together and found that one still felt that Maggie's policies did wreck the economy; the rest felt they were successful (including the 364 who now have to admit they were wrong). Watchtower is like that one lone crackpot economist, that looks into the past, studies historical facts and trends, and then proclaims his view of the past that is totally out of sync with everyone else.
  
  ~Q
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  scholar

  Jeffro'

  My logic is perfectly sound, it is your logic that is hopelessly flawed. The forementioned chart listing authorities dating the Fall proves that Christendom's scholars are in total disagreement concerning a definite date for Jerusalem. The current methodology for the secular chronology fails, it does not work because no scholar outside the circle of the 'celebrated ones' cannot give a precise date for this event. The reason for this is becuse they ignore, minimize or misinterpret the 'seventy years'.

  Celebrated WT scholars over many centuries have got this biblical event correct and this is proven by the ending of the Gentile Times in 1914 with the momentous events on earth since that time.

  If the secular chronology is sound an the method and data is sound then how is it that no date can be precisely agreed upon? Many scholars want to blame the biblical data but the celebrated ones use that same data and are still able to determine the precise year of 607 BCE.

  scholar JW
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  stillajwexelder

  the needle is stuck in the gramaphone record again
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  toreador

  Hmmm.

  What the heck!
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  AlanF

  All of scholar pretendus' pretensions that the 607 date is significant are precisely that -- pretensions. All of his arguments hinge on assuming that this is the most important date of ancient history, when it clearly is not. What this guy wants to do is force this assumption on everyone else and then challenge them to disprove his claims. This ass-backwards reasoning is typical of that used by cult apologists.

  The fact is that, if the 607 date were correct, then almost every date prior to about 539 B.C. is wrong. This would mean that thousands of historical documents are so much junk. But why would virtually all ancient documents prior to 539 B.C. pertaining to Middle Eastern history be wrong? Why would 539 be the turning point? Isn't it obvious that it's the Society's claims that are so much junk? Especially in view of the fact that all JW apologists -- and most especially the Society's writers themselves -- deliberately ignore much evidence?

  It's clear that the Watchtower Society and its apologists hold inconsistent standards. On the one hand, they have no problem with the 539 date for the fall of Babylon, or with the post-539 historical data that confirms this date, but reject all pre-539 data that also confirm the date. This is special pleading of the worst sort.

  All readers of this forum who have experienced the special pleading and putrid reasoning set forth by JW apologists know how these people work.

  A good example pertains to scholar pretendus here. Some weeks ago, I posted information that showed unequivocally that one statement by Josephus shows that the Jews returned to Judah, not in 537 B.C. as the Watchtower claims, but in 538 B.C., which clobbers the 607 date. This guy subsequently claimed that he could take just a couple of hours to refute this, along with many other disproofs of Watchtower claims, but he has yet to make another peep about it. Obviously he hopes that readers will forget. Likely he has the same philosophy as the Governing Body that works so well with the JW community -- "if we don't talk about this for a long time, people will forget about it." Well, there are no people on this board that gullible, aside from JW apologists.

  AlanF
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  AlanF

  Scholar pretendus wrote:

  : If the secular chronology is sound an the method and data is sound then how is it that no date can be precisely agreed upon? Many scholars want to blame the biblical data but the celebrated ones use that same data and are still able to determine the precise year of 607 BCE.

  This is a good example of your lies. It's a lie because you've already been told what's wrong with your reasoning dozens of times. Once again, here is what's wrong:

  The biblical data is most certainly ambiguous. That's why various brilliant scholars come to different conclusions.

  But the most blatant lie is that Watchtower writers "use that same data". They demonstrably do not. What they do is use the unsubstantiated and disproved claim that the Jews returned to Judah in 537 B.C., along with the disproved claim that various passages such as in Jeremiah, 2 Chronicles and Daniel determine a 70-year complete desolation of Judah, and arrive at 607 B.C. for the date of Jerusalem's destruction. They completely ignore all problematic biblical data.

  The fact that Watchtower writers ignore all other problematic biblical data is easy enough to prove: simply read over the material in the Society's most definitive statements about this topic, found in various articles in the Insight on the Scriptures volumes and in the 1981 book "Let Your Kingdom Come", and you won't find any discussion whatsoever of the problems that concern real scholars. Hundreds of books and articles have been written about these problems, and to pretend that such problems don't exist is beyond stupid -- it's dishonest.

  AlanF
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  VM44

  AlanF wrote:

  "Some weeks ago, I posted information that showed unequivocally that one statement by Josephus shows that the Jews returned to Judah, not in 537 B.C. as the Watchtower claims, but in 538 B.C., which clobbers the 607 date. This guy subsequently claimed that he could take just a couple of hours to refute this, along with many other disproofs of Watchtower claims, but he has yet to make another peep about it. Obviously he hopes that readers will forget."

  Hi AlanF. Just so that we won't forget (or so we can read it for the first time), could you post a link to that posting of yours?

  --VM44
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  VM44

  Deleted - Duplicate posting. --VM44
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  PaNiCAtTaCk

  I like the reasoning of the "Gentile Times" book. If you role a single die several thousand times in an effort to turn up a certain number, and never get that number, eventually you have to conclude that it isnt there. Out of the thousands and thousands of cunieform tablets that have been dug up, every one of them have been in total disagreement with the 607 date. There whole belief system is riding on evidence that has never BEEN found, and yet they have to stick with there beliefs, because if you have no 607, then they have LOST there authority over you!