my favorite apologist theory....

by theinfamousone 35 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  Sa2ne

  theinfamousone -

  I've seen or heard this argument a million times. But I've never really heard a good solution to the bigger problem at hand. That is: What would you have God do? Keeping in mind two points:

  1. God is perfect in all things (including justice). As Paul writes, if you're guilty of one sin, you're guilty of all in God's eyes. So, how would you justify God destroying Hitler and not your neighbor who stole something from your back yard? On an even bigger scale, is there anyone who is guilt-free having never sinned? Should God destroy the whole world?

  2. We have free will. How could God "throw a blanket of love" (as I saw posted on another thread on this board) on all evil people without being in conflict with our freedom to choose what we do?

  If I understand you correctly, you don't believe in any God, god, etc... But working within the framework of the bible (which you established as the framework in your question: "bible-thumper"), what would you ask God to do without conflicting with the previous two points?
• 

  theinfamousone

  see. the devil gets a bad rap though... like honestly, i think i would prefer the world we live in today than this paradise we speak of... i mean if this is hell, then im fine with it... cuz, i mean at least i have a range of emotions... instead of only "bliss"... free will, god didnt give us that, we gave it to ourselves.... i think its sometihng we learn, not sometihng we can be given... babies, well they do what they are told, untill they are about 2 or so... but before then, we do nothing without the help or command of our parents or guardians right... so once we actually start putting some thought together, we learn to do, and not need commands... we learn it, teach it to ourselves...

  the infamous one
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  2. We have free will. How could God "throw a blanket of love" (as I saw posted on another thread on this board) on all evil people without being in conflict with our freedom to choose what we do?

  Even us mere humans don't let people have "free will". You can't -- for instance -- plot to blow up a building. You can't even PLOT it. If they catch you in the planning stages, you're guilty of a crime.

  God could see a rapist planning his rape. He could even let him go to the last possible moment before he has actually committed the act -- and stop him. Stop him cold. Wouldn't have to kill him, just stop him.

  That's not a "free will" violation, it's protecting his children from harm. Or put another way, in a civilized universe run by a just and loving god, free will would be tempered with rules. But that's not the way the universe is.

  Dave
• 

  Qcmbr

  Maybe God is bound by rules and law just like the rest of us? Maybe He's not allowed to intervene by whatever rules He abides by?
  
  
  There are some ills in this world that are a direct result of bad choices (rape, murder, violence, theft, neglect ..)
  
  There are some natural things in this world that are outside of our control (weather, disaster, genetic disorder ..)
  
  There are some bad things we do to ourselves and some that are done to us.
  
  There is always a victim to every bad decision and there is always a perpetrator (often one and the same.)
  
  There are sometimes victims of nature but there is generally no perpetrator of the natural disaster (except in deforestation or global floods..)
  
  
  IF God lives there must be a purpose to life - if we could understand that then we have a chance at understanding why the above scenarios happen - until then we're whinging without understanding - certainly if there is no God, nature won't give a stuff and if there is a God , cursing Him won't result in finding the answer..
• 

  Sa2ne

  
  AlmostAtheist -

  It is indeed protecting a child. But it is also a violation of free will. In your example we do have free will today. You can plot to blow up a building. No one can stop you from plotting to do that. However, if you're caught, you are punished. I understand that some freedoms can be taken away. In that sense we don't have free will today. Neither do we practice perfect justice. Which is why a child rapist can get away with a six week jail sentence after being convicted.

  Free will is either "free" or it is not. If we are not "free" to do whatever we want, we do not have free will.

  Nonetheless, your example is still in conflict with point 1. If you stop a rapist from raping, you must also inhibit a person's thoughts when they desire another man's wife (a sin according to the bible).
• 

  jojochan

  God's Sovereignty being questioned is the reason that we are suffering, he has to prove that we cant live without him in peace"

  So god is allowing millions upon millions of people to die just so he can prove a point?

  I think that his "point" has been overkilled.

  I concur. Just as I was going to point out.

  jojochan.
• 

  jojochan

  if any father today discovers his son is about to go to school and blow away a teacher or other students and does nothing to prevent it, he will not be given any slack for his concern in preserving his son's free will. and no one will think him a good father and roll model.

  because he would sit back and say," Hey, it comes to show how much he needs a good father to watch over him...SEE? I made my point, ladies and gentelmen."

  I don't know why that came to mind when I read that post, but it felt so dead on what we were talking about, imho.
• 

  Buster

  'Joe Hoba has the ability, when he so opts, to not see the future.'

  The stupidity of that statement has echoed in my head at times over the years. I first heard it after a teacher suggested that if god was so damned omniscient, he would have known that Adam would take the fruit. He would have known that Satan would rebel ... that stuff.

  Of course it is not just dubbies that spout such speciousness. Now and again, I still shake my head at it.
• 

  AlmostAtheist

  It is indeed protecting a child. But it is also a violation of free will. In your example we do have free will today. You can plot to blow up a building. No one can stop you from plotting to do that. However, if you're caught, you are punished. I understand that some freedoms can be taken away. In that sense we don't have free will today. Neither do we practice perfect justice. Which is why a child rapist can get away with a six week jail sentence after being convicted.

  Free will is either "free" or it is not. If we are not "free" to do whatever we want, we do not have free will.

  Nonetheless, your example is still in conflict with point 1. If you stop a rapist from raping, you must also inhibit a person's thoughts when they desire another man's wife (a sin according to the bible).

  The only reason we don't stop people from plotting to blow up buildings is because we can't catch them. God could catch them, so why doesn't he?

  We're not free to do what we want. We're constricted in every way. We can't fly unaided. We can't expand to 30 times our size. And in civilized societies we can't decide to kill someone and then go do it. We're not "free" to plot murder, so long as we understand we'll get punished for it. We simply can't do it. The only reason some people manage to do it anyway is because our crime prevention isn't good enough to detect the act in progress and stop it. God could, but he doesn't. When our technology allows us to stop people BEFORE they commit crimes, we will. (Oops, anyone thinking "minority report"?)

  Your last point is a classic all-or-nothing bit. No, stopping a rapist doesn't in any way require me to also inhibit a person's thoughts. "Boy, I'd like to have sex with her" and actually planning to rape a woman are two very different things. (Regardless of what the Bible may say about it.) God could allow anyone to think anything, and only intervene when their actions impinged on another person's rights. Where do you draw the line? I don't, but then, I'm not God. Presumably, he would know where to draw the line.

  His choice (if he exists at all) has been to simply not take any action at all. If he were anyone else, he'd be publicly denounced for such neglect. But he's God, so he gets by with it.

  Dave
• 

  M.J.

  silly line I heard in Spy Kids 2: "do you think God just stays away up in heaven because he's afraid of what he's created?"