my favorite apologist theory....

by theinfamousone 35 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  Sa2ne

  I'm not insulted. It's difficult to break away from some of lingo and speech patterns drilled into me for 21 years. It's understandable.
• 

  kid-A

  I guess I link the action to sin. Sin would be that which is the opposite of perfection. If God is preventing a person's actions, He is preventing the sin.

  First, define what is sin? Who decides what sin is? Human cultures define good and evil. When your god kills and exacts divine retribution you call this "good". I would call it "evil" so right off the bat your metaphysical argument is based upon an erroneous a priori assumption based on pre-established cultural biases. The original post is not limiting the argument to the mythical fairy tale of the garden of eden. The concept is much simpler. If god is responsible for the universe and all reality within it, he is responsible for the consequences of this "creation". By this rationale, "sin" was the creation of your god, just as was satan, free will, evil, good ,etc etc.

  Second, define perfection? The opposite of sin? This is just a circular argument that has no logical conclusion or premise save for the circumscribed cultural mythos espoused by the bible you appear to accept as factual.

  How ironic that the imperfect legal system established in most democracies punishes "parents" for neglecting the welfare of their children. Why? We logically accept that since they brought them into being, they have a moral obligation to their well being. In this scenario, god is a nothing more than a deadbeat parent, who skipped town a long time ago while his 'creation' went to shit. Man is morally superior to god in every possible way.
• 

  theinfamousone

  wow, so much controversy!!! i am just at the point that i realize either god doesnt exist, or he doesnt have the power we think he has... I MEAN ANYONE, AND I MEAN ANYONE, WOULD FIX THE PROBLEMS THAT THIS WORLD HAS IF THEY HAD THE POWER... right? i mean like even hitler would think the suffering of these kids in africa was too much... well, maybe not hitler... but like seriously... if god is there, how the hell does he/she avoid fixing this shit???

  i guess one could also argue that he is there. but that he isjust cruel... that opens a whole new topic line.. what do u guys think??? i just dont buy the god knows best.... for too long this world has been too shitty!!! WE HAVE LEARNED OUR FUCKIN LESSON, IF YOU KNOW BETTER< THEN SHOW US!!!!

  fuck free will... if he will fix everything, end the suffering, id rather have no free will than see children die every day of hunger, cancer, aids and so many other torturous ways of dying.. it isnt fair!

  the infamous one
• 

  Sa2ne

  First, define what is sin?

  
  sin 1 n.
  

  1. A transgression of a religious or moral law, especially when deliberate.
  2. Theology.
  3. Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God.
  4. A condition of estrangement from God resulting from such disobedience.

  
  
• Something regarded as being shameful, deplorable, or utterly wrong.




Who decides what sin is?




God


I would call it "evil" so right off the bat your metaphysical argument is based upon an erroneous a priori assumption based on pre-established cultural biases.

You are assuming that the "bias" is based on a pre-established human culture and not a divine moral law. Your premise is flawed. "Good and Evil" are not simply established by human cultures, or there would be no absolutes. Everything would be acceptable everywhere. The fact that so many of the moral laws are cross cultural lends to the fact that there must be an absolute moral law. For there to be an absolute moral law, there must be an absolute moral law-maker, i.e., God.



The original post is not limiting the argument to the mythical fairy tale of the garden of eden.

I never stated that it was. The original post did, however, limit the argument to the Christian realm:



have you ever gotteni nto an argument with a J-Dub, or basically any HARDCORE bible thumper???

JW's consider themselves Christians, and the only large religious group that can be affiliated with the bible is Christianity. Therefore, my arguments were based within a Christian perspective.



If god is responsible for the universe and all reality within it, he is responsible for the consequences of this "creation". By this rationale, "sin" was the creation of your god, just as was satan, free will, evil, good ,etc etc.

God created everything in the universe. Sin and evil are the absence of God. You cannot create cold. It is simply the absence of heat.



Second, define perfection?

per·fect
adj.

1. Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature or kind.
2. Being without defect or blemish: a perfect specimen.
3. Thoroughly skilled or talented in a certain field or area; proficient.
4. Completely suited for a particular purpose or situation: She was the perfect actress for the part.
6. Completely corresponding to a description, standard, or type: a perfect circle; a perfect gentleman.
7. Accurately reproducing an original: a perfect copy of the painting.
• Complete; thorough; utter: a perfect fool.
• Pure; undiluted; unmixed: perfect red.
• Excellent and delightful in all respects: a perfect day.

This is just a circular argument that has no logical conclusion or premise save for the circumscribed cultural mythos espoused by the bible you appear to accept as factual.

This statement made no sense. All you said was that I accept the bible as fact and you don't. Where else would you expect me to draw a premise and conclusion regarding Christianity and God except FROM the bible that I accept as factual?

This entire response is exactly what I came to expect the last time I regularly posted on this forum. It displays complete and utter hatred for Christianity and God, and the outlet for that hatred is a tone of condescension. I am fed up with many (although not all) Atheists and Agnostics who strut around on high horses pretending to be enlightened and far superior to the stupid believers who ignore science and reason. It's a position spoken from ignorance and completely unfounded. If any of you reading this are Atheists who do not hold to that MO, then kudos to you. I have met few.

Nonetheless, I respect your right to believe whatever you like.