Possibility vs Probability of JW 'Action'

by VeniceIT 22 Replies latest jw friends

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    This gives some real interesting food for thought. Here are a couple of other ones to chew on.

    Many years ago, aged Bethelite, Maxwell Friend, told a close friend that the last of his family had died, and now he could relax because they had the resurrection hope, since they wouldn't listen to "the truth".

    Abraham, was willing to kill his beloved son Isaac, because he thought God wanted him to do it. What is the difference?

    That is a REAL sore point with me, so forgive me if it offends you. I think it was an allegory, and in no way a real life situation. But the situation is the same isn't it?

    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)

  • proplog2
    proplog2

    At the time Abraham showed such willingness to sacrifice his son it was common practice to sacrifice children. Jehovah showed that he DIDN'T expect that kind of thing.

    That's why it is so horrible that JW's think God would expect them to let their children die to please him in the case of blood transfusions. Even Abraham was spared that pain.

  • princecharmant
    princecharmant

    The WT has never ordered its members or suggested to them that they could go out and settle scores with whoever. The possibility of them doing so is remote indeed. As tragic as some of the stories related here are, the fact is that we all at one time subscribed to the Society's interpretation of Paul's word to not even say a greeting to the one "thrown out". Those were the "rules".

    I find the overall tone of this thread too condescending, the characterization and portrayal of Witnesses too blanket.

    pc

  • ITguy
    ITguy

    Ven, A couple thoughts...

    First...the WTS will never tell its members to kill "Apostates." That idea is so ludicrous that I'm surprised, (well, not really) that it could be floated around, even on a board like this one.

    Second...If you would've honestly answered a resounding yes to a request to kill "Apostates"...then I'm a little concerned. That would put you into the "fanatical" JW category, which I believe is the minority of Witnesses. First of all, as I stated already, the WTS will never issue such a command. But if that unlikley order was issued, I seriously doubt you'd see the rank and file out there "stalking, hunting and killing apostates"

    In fact, I have a theory that the Fanatical JW's and the Fanatical Apostates are not all that much disalike. In fact, I think they're cut from the same cloth, and I think you'll find more than a few of the now fanatical opposers were once fanatical Witnesses. Obviously this is not meant as a blanket statement, and I'm sure some are going to take it that way. It's no more a blanket statement than many of the stereotypes that are portrayed about JW's on this board.

    I have no doubt that people said the things to you that they did. I can picture this being said:

    One of my VERY DEAR friends that I talk to last year said this to me. "Be glad your not in the 1st century or we'd all have to stone you".

    But your conclusion afterwards I think is too much.

    "You see it's right on their minds that they would if they could, if they change a few ideas like in Alan's WT article and it's not such a long shot. JW's have gone to prison before for following the WTS, I bet they'd think the end must REALLY BE NEAR, what to do they have to lose, they'll make it to Paradise for sure!"

    JW's know that they are not going to be doing these things. If this sort of thing needs to be done, they will not be doing it. Jehovah is the one who will be doing any of this sort of thing. For you to say the above words saddens me very much. I like you alot Ven, (How could anyone not?) these words of yours though, sound just a bit too fanatical.

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    To proplog2: If he didn't mean for him to do it, then why did he ask him to do it? Later, in the scriptures, he tells the people, that do ask such a thing, never "came up into my heart."

    The fact that child sacrifice was such a common practice in the nations around Abraham, just convinces me more and more that it is an allegory, not meant to be taken literally. The writer, whoever that was, used a common practice to prove a point. In no way would the God I believe in EVER ask a parent to do such a thing.

    To ITguy: About the fanaticism, directed at Venice, I can only say this family is a very "passionate" one about anything they become convinced of. You can call it fanaticism if you want to, and maybe they would have killed apostates, but NOW they are passionately working with silentlambs for a greater good. That strength of committment, and strength of character, is now directed to a good thing.

    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Great post ITguy. Well said.

    Perhaps if we were in another time and another place we'd be the Catholic Church. It is easy to make people to do horrible things when they believe God wants them to.

    But I think times have changed and for the most part, people are thinking differently. There is more tolerance within and outside of JWs. More JWs disagree privately than ever before with many teachings and judicial decisions.

    As more time goes by, I think many are waking up to the fact that "apostates" are not really that different from them. Once that information barrier is broken down more JWs will wake up and realize just who exactly was making up the lies and that "apostates" aren't the monsters they were made out to be.

    Path

  • ITguy
    ITguy

    Mulan...

    Calling someone a "fanatic" can be a pretty ugly word, I agree, and I don't want to give the impression that I think Ven and her family are a bunch a wackos or something. "Passionate" is a much better word. I was only trying to state that her words _sounded_ fanatical.

    I am just a little concerned about anyone though who would say they would kill another human being if told to so.

  • Mulan
    Mulan

    Okay. I know what you mean. I think what Ven was trying to get across is the level of committment of 'dyed in the wool dubs'. They will literally do whatever they are told. I know many dubs who won't go very far for that cause, but this family would have. I doubt they would have taken a life. They are far too loving to go that far, but may have felt it would be justified if someone else were to do it.

    Her Mom said she would have sacrificed one of her kids if Jehovah had asked her. (I was ranting on about Abraham and Isaac again) Then she said JW's do it everyday, with the blood issue. Good point. I was never faced with that, so don't know what I would have chosen to do. But I LOVE my kids so much, I think I might have taken the risk to keep them with me now. It would have broken me, terribly, to have lost one of them, and to think I might have been able to save them with a blood transfusion, would have been tempting. But I just don't know what I would have done. I was pretty strong, and a terrible "Pharisee". I shudder to remember how I was before.

    Marilyn (a.k.a. Mulan)

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    Interesting comments and viewpoints.

    Let me try to clear up my views on this.

    First, the point of my parody was that the Society has put into place a mindset that allows JWs to be easily led to almost any kind of action. This says nothing whatsoever about the probability that JW leaders would actually lead JWs to any particular action.

    Second, I think that the possibility that JW leaders would actually issue a "call to action" to "kill apostates" is remote. This says nothing whatsoever about the 'blind follower' mindset that they've instilled in JWs for decades.

    In other words, the 'blind follower' mindset has nothing to do with whether JW leaders would use it to get JWs to "kill apostates".

    In my parody I could just as easily have chosen any number of wierd activities, like the Society calling for JWs to go around with their left pinkies stuck up their noses as a sign of solidarity with the Governing Body. The point is the mindset, not the particular actions that illustrate it.

    It's easy enough to demonstrate the mindset of JWs even with an action as odious as killing members of one's family who are 'apostates'. I know -- I've tried it. Ask a typical JW if he or she would kill an apostate if the Society instructed them to. Most would answer No. But if you pursue the line of argument to its logical end, you'll find that many JWs will either admit that they would kill, or they'll simply run away from you. What you've done is put them between a rock and a hard place, and they won't know how to get out of it. If the JW answers No, ask them if they believe that the Governing Body speaks for "the faithful slave" and if this "slave" truly speaks in God's name. If the JW answers No, then you can point out that, according to these leaders, they are an apostate because according to JW teaching they've repudiated "God's chosen" and "Christ's brothers". Such a person is a lousy JW. Most JWs will not answer No, since they know this and think of themselves as loyal to "Jehovah's organization". So if the JW answers Yes, you ask them how they could believe that the GB speaks for God, and yet they would refuse to obey "God's spokesmen", even in such a horrendous situation. A JW will then realize internally that they've been caught in an untenable situation: Either they don't really believe in this "faithful slave" teaching, or they would indeed kill on command. Either way the ethical JW is screwed.

    As for Watchtower leaders, I have absolutely no doubt that a few would issue a command to "kill apostates" if they were forced into a "them or us" situation. Most, however, would not. And they would fight against any in their midst who tried to issue such a command. The situation developing right now with respect to child molestation issues could easily precipitate such a crisis among JW leaders.

    It's easy to prove that most JWs will go along with unscriptural or death-dealing commands issued by their leaders. The organ transplant ban of 1967 is a clear case. JWs accepted that, as a whole, even though it carried the potential that some would die rather than get a transplant, and some would take positive action to allow a loved one to die rather than get a transplant. When the WTS rescinded the ban in 1980, JWs dumbly accepted that too.

    The issue of alternative military service is another good example of how willingly JWs will go along with a horrible policy. During WWII the Society decided that volunteering for alternative service was a violation of "Christian neutrality" because it was logically the same as volunteering for the military. Obviously the "logic" in that is bullshit, but that's what JWs lived by. Quite a few young men were disfellowshipped over this issue, even though the Bible says nothing about it, and even the Society now admits that the old policy was unscriptural. Many of my contemporaries in the 1960s in the U.S. were sentenced to several years working in hospitals and such for almost no wages. A few years ago the WTS changed its policy, and JWs who once believed and taught that volunteering for alternative military service was a betrayal of Jehovah God now believe and teach the opposite -- all because of words written in a single Watchtower article.

    Another illustration of the cult mindset is how JWs react when a loved one is disfellowshipped. In most cultures, the family is sacrosanct. In JW culture, the JW community is sacrosanct, and if someone is DF'd, the requirement of the JW community is to kill normal family relationships. They've produced a culture where mother against daughter, brother against brother, child against parent, is not only tolerated but is required. They even require that the Bible notion of "headship" is violated, because if a father is DF'd, according to JW 'law' he is no longer the head of the household.

    The best illustration of the JW cult mindset today is the blood transfusion issue. JWs will die and allow their children to die based on nothing more than the Governing Body's unscriptural interpretations of a few Bible passages. And just as JWs will now generally get needed organ transplants, when the WTS changes its policy on blood, JWs will generally get needed transfusions.

    With demonstrations of the JW cult mindset as illustrated above, where JWs have demonstrably violated biblical principles, ethical norms and common sense, it's easy to see how they could go just a bit farther, if prodded properly, even to the point of killing people. Any who claim that JWs do not have such a cult mindset ought to perform an experiment like I outlined above. It will convince them that a large fraction of JWs are capable of almost any nasty conduct, as long as they're prodded properly.

    AlanF

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    Nice post AF

    Path

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