Did Ray Franz write COC out of anger?

by Brutus 39 Replies latest jw friends

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Brutus: Some have wondered about Ray's motives in writing Crisis of Conscience.

    You noted that your GF said,

    ... she tells me she has and that his book was mostly lies about the organization and that's the reason he left was because he was tempted by a hooker and ended up sleeping with her. He told the elders what he did because he was looking for help and he ended up getting DF. Later he found out he ended up contract HIV. What's your take on this?

    Ray Franz is a friend of mine. I have visited with he and his wife, talked with him on the phone, and corresponed many times over the last 9 years. Your GF is spreading absolutely untrue gossip about Ray.

    I have read C of C about 5 times in great detail. Anyone who claims to have read C of C would know that Ray documented his work very well. I have personally checked every reference (with a few exceptions where I was not able to obtain some references.)

    Anyone who has read C of C would also know that Ray wrote a very kind, objective, and fair analysis of Watch Tower Society history, doctrine, policies and practices. He exhibited no bitterness. He wrote his book out of a sense of responsibility to share what he knows to be the truth, and correct serious errors and misunderstandings that JWs believe about the organization, its teachings, procedures, and leadership.

    Example: Ray provided copies of the correspondence with the JC that disfellowshiped him. These contain the actual reasons for the action they took. Examination of this as a former Elder, I find Rays statements and record very credible and fits within the way JWs and the Elders operate. I seriously doubt that Ray would have written such a book were he guilty of some serious sin as your GF alleges.

    The HIV claim? Ray Franz has been disfellowshipped for 20 years. HIV, as it was contracted in the late 1970s early 1980s, was not at all treatable as it is today. Yet, Ray's health is remarkably good for a man who is nearly 80 years old - 20 years after leaving the organizaiton. If he would have had HIV back then, he would most likely be dead by now.

    I highly suspect that your GF did little more than scan the book's cover and maybe a page or two and drew wild conclusions, and then has chosen to spread these. Were she a loyal JW, she would not have read it. If she as a JW chose to read C of C, she would have had to have at least some level of thinking ability and open mind. This would have precluded her from spreading such vicious and twisted lies about Ray Franz.

    Challenge: Have your GF either come on to this board, or through you, post her documented and verified sources that support her claims. Have her quote, or at least cite pages and paragraphs from C of C and tell us all how Ray's book is in any way untrue. If you fear a large board debate, you can email me priavtely at: [email protected]. I will be please to discuss her claims on any level you and she choose.

    Also, if you wish, you can have your GF directly or through you write to my email any questions she has for Ray Franz, and I will forward these to him for a response. Or she can write to him herself at: -Commentary Press, PO Box 43532, Atlanta, GA 30336-0532 Commentary Press will see to it that Ray Franz gets her correspondence. He is good about responding to first time letters from JWs. I suggest she do this because as the Watch Tower organization itself says, 'Rather than listening to what others say about you, it is better that they ask you personally.' Certainly, Ray deserves that kind consideration. - Amazing

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Brutus,

    Ask your girlfriend to explain to you about the Theocratic Strategy that was mentioned just above. In short, this "strategy" tells her that it is OK to lie in the defense of God's True Organization.

    You're going to MARRY this chick?

    Good Luck, dude!

    Do you know which sexual practices the Watchtower approves for married couples? You may as well invite an elder to come with you on your wedding night to make sure the consumation is performed in accordance with Watchtower guidelines.

    "And who are these Watchtower Elders who will be directing each stroke on my wedding night?" you ask.

    You'll be pleased to know that according to the Watchtower itself, these men are "untrained amatuers." They have no theology degrees, no psychology degrees, no training that might provide them with leadership skills of any sort. They just read the Watchtower and that makes them qualified to tell someone else how to run their life and to sit in judgement of anyone who breaks the man-made rules.

    Do you plan to have kids? Think about what you might like your kids to be like, what you might like to see them accomplish under your benevolent parenting; write those things down, then wad them up and throw them in the crapper, because they will NEVER come true! Say goodbye to your kids the day they're born, because they'll be raised as Jehovah's Witnesses no matter what YOU think about it. Your (oops, I mean HER) kids won't be permitted to engage in school sports activities or social activities, and they'll be discouraged from academic excellence as well. They WILL, however, become trained magazine salesmen of the Watchtower. You're just a sperm donor, Jehovah of the Watchtower is their Father.

    ..and pray to whatever you hold Holy that your kids never fall victim to sexual abuse while under the "care" of these Watchtower shepherds, because the Watchtower turns a blind eye to such conduct, refusing to report child sexual abuse to the police.

    When you get tired of having this weary, joyless, angry old bible-thumping millstone around your neck, wondering what became of the beautiful girl you fell in love with, you'll discover the difficulty of getting her to give you a divorce.

    You're in for a real TREAT, Brutus!

  • Billygoat
    Billygoat

    Brutus,

    Man you are in my prayers. If you plan on marrying this woman, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, listen to all the comments on this board!!! You have no idea how much heartache being married to a JW will bring you.

    Ray Franz's book was written with a lot of honesty, good documentation/references, and with no anger/hatred at all. I suggest reading it yourself to gather your own viewpoint. But I also was also struck with the lack of hate that it was written with. More than anything Ray sounded sad. But who wouldn't be when you church turns against you after decades of blood, sweat and tears? Your GF has very obviously not read the book. Her lying should be a red flag to you!

    Best wishes,
    Andi

  • Brutus
    Brutus

    Amazing,
    Thanks for the info. It was greatly appreciated. I will be contacting you or Ray on this matter. I'm going to speak more indepth with her about it tonight.

    Nathan,
    I don't think me or my GF really care which sexual practices the Watchtower approves of. We have done all including anal and 3 somes. :-)

    We plan on having kids but I would never let them grow up learning JW beliefs. I have already expressed that to her clearly when we do have kids I do not want them being taught that or I will not marry her.

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Brutus,

    Congratulations on the pre-marital sex and the three-way; she may be much less of a witness than she pretends to be.

    On the other hand, in her own mind she may simply be 'sowing her wild oats," or doing what she has to do to get YOU to marry her. What if she experiences some guilt AFTER the wedding and decides that she needs to return to "The Trooth" (intentionally misspelled out of respect for objective truth.)

    WHY is she calling herself a witness if she's not interesting in being one? There's a logical disconnect here...

    You said, "We plan on having kids but I would never let them grow up learning JW beliefs. I have already expressed that to her clearly when we do have kids I do not want them being taught that or I will not marry her."

    HUH? Assuming the kids come after the wedding, how are you going to do that?

  • Brutus
    Brutus

    Sorry I have been miswording things a bit. She says she has her own personal relationship with god, not necessarily calling herself a JW but still studying there belief system. If that makes any sense?

    Also with the kids dilemma, let me rephrase what I said. I told her I do not want to have my kids learning JW beliefs, PERIOD. If she doesn't agree with that then what is the sense in even getting married. She can just hit the road and forget about it.
    Hope this all makes a bit more sense.

  • Brutus
    Brutus

    Amazing,
    If Ray lives in GA maybe we could visit him face to face. I'd love to meet him. We also live in GA.

  • Amazing
    Amazing

    Hi Brutus: If you correspond with Ray Franz a few times and let him know where you live, then you and he can work something out for a visit. He will let you know where he lives. Ray and Cynthia have been open and hospitable to visitors over the years. Now that he is reaching nearly 80 years of age, he may have some limitations. I am not speaking for him, but I am mentioning this for your information. He has visitors over on Sundays at times for Bible discussion, so maybe this would be a good time to meet several former JWs in addition to Ray. - Amazing

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Your girlfriend is a head case.

    She's proudly condemning others, via slander, while in her own personal life, she is dating a "worldly man". She does not, I repeat NOT, feel good about what she is doing with you, but she has made a way to do it in her mind. She will pay for this, mentally in the future, and so will you.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    PS. I just read the rest of the replies, beyond your first post.

    I take back what I said above. Sort of.

    She has some odd ideas floating thru her head, that is all I can say.

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