Did Satan lie? (page 5)

startingover

Robdar,

You are absolutely right! The next verse (5) he told the truth as verified by Yahweh, but if we take it for what it says you are right.

I amazes me how this gets discussed like it's something that really happened. I sure don't think it did.

undercover

and Satan said to them "Ye shall not surely die", then yes, he did lie. They died didnt they?

Note the exact change of dialogue:

Now the serpent (NOT Satan ) proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘you must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it that you do not die.’” At this the serpent said to the woman: “you positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of your eating from it your eyes are bound to be opened and you are bound to be like God, knowing good and bad.”

A&E did eventually die, but nowhere is it stated that they were meant to live forever to begin with.

Earlier God told Adam: " From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

So it was declared by God that if they ate the fruit, they would die the day they ate it. They didn't. God lied. The serpent said their eyes would be opened, they would know good from bad. The serpent's response that eating the fruit would not cause their death came true. He didn't lie.

Notice that God actually gave a different punishment for eating the fruit than what he said he would do:

To the woman he said: “I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children, and your craving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you.”

And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

Even if one insists that the serpent (NOT Satan) lied about them not ever dying, God lied first when he said their punishement would be death the day they ate of it.

Robdar

Undercover makes good points. I agree with all of them. I don't even know why I responded to this thread, really. I don't believe in the myth. Don't believe in original sin either. I guess I responded because it still amazes me that people believe this stuff.

funkyderek

Robdar:

If Adam and Eve really did exist (I don't believe they did)

Of course. It's just a story, but not quite the story Christians would have us believe. In any case, we can argue over what the text says - and means - without believing it has any real-world significance.

and Satan said to them "Ye shall not surely die", then yes, he did lie. They died didnt they?

Yes, but not as a result of eating the fruit. What the serpent told Eve is recorded in Genesis 3:4,5 (NIV):

"You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So what actually happened after they ate? v.22:

And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

God obviously felt threatened by this because he decided:

"He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

In order to punish Adam and Eve for eating the fruit, God then banished them from the garden and put an armed guard around it. There is nothing to indicate that their deaths were caused by eating the fruit, but rather by the curse that "the LORD God" put on them, which was never part of the original deal. The serpent did not lie in the text of Genesis. It's quite straightforward if read without the baggage of later exegesis.

Robdar

The serpent did not lie in the text of Genesis. It's quite straightforward if read without the baggage of later exegesis. Good points, FunkyD.

I keep running my mind over what Undercover said: A&E did eventually die, but nowhere is it stated that they were meant to live forever to begin with.

teejay

I spoke with fundamentalist (not a JW) workmate Frank about this very passage a couple of weeks ago. I asked Frank whether god lied or not.

"When god told Adam he'd die, he meant spiritual death," was Frank's explanation.

"Did Adam have the slightest clue about spiritual death? Having lived in the Garden for an untold period of time and seeing animals meet their end, what sort of death *was* Adam aware of? And what did Adam understand a "day" to mean?"

All I got was a condescending wag of the head as Frank saw me burning alive in Hell.

jstalin

"When god told Adam he'd die, he meant spiritual death," was Frank's explanation.

I love answers like that. In other words, "That's what god said, but that's not what he meant." They're getting into the mind of god, now?

BlessedStar

Even if one insists that the serpent (NOT Satan) lied about them not ever dying, God lied first when he said their punishement would be death the day they ate of it.

God was very compassionate. He did not lie still - Adam and Eve eventually died. God still gave them a chance to live. God however wanted the earth to be full of people, He could have just wiped out man kind but He didn't.

Satan lied. Adam and Eve still died. If they had obeyed they would have been alive up to this day on earth.

BlessedStar

Robdar:

If Adam and Eve really did exist (I don't believe they did)

You know you exist Robdar. But someone later down the road, after you died may not believe you ever existed because they never saw you. Adam and Eve really did exist. So many years have passed and we know about them. What about all the people in History? What about Caesar? What about the Romans? The wars which still continues as of the Bible history. What about traditional medicine? These could not have just been made up. They were real. So many people you don't know about in the world who died, would you say they didn't exist too because you never saw them but only heard stories about them? BlessedStar

undercover

Adam and Eve really did exist. So many years have passed and we know about them. What about all the people in History? What about Caesar? These could not have just been made up. They were real.

Using your logic that would mean that every legendary character surviving in litrature today actually lived. The boy Arthur actually pulled a sword out of a stone and became King. Robin Hood really did rob from the rich and gave to the poor. Apollo and Zeus are real gods.

Did Satan lie?

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