by M.J. 20 Replies latest watchtower bible
The JWs, of course, claim this occurred in 1914, thus making the way for the new heavenly order with Christ (Michael) having won the battle and taking his place on the throne.
But what does Revelation itself suggest as the timeframe for this battle?
Doesn't the Society's version suggest that heaven was out of control until then--kind of like another earth?
Imo this passage is best explained as a flashback on the Messianic times, before the current (late 1st century) persecution of the church by the Roman empire (v. 17, "then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her children, those who keep the commandments of God and hold the testimony of Jesus," describes the author's present).
The notion earlier in Revelation is that Satan is already residing on the earth (cf. 12:12-13):
"I know where you live [the city of Pergamum] -- where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city -- where Satan himself lives" (Revelation 2:13).
Similarly, if you compare 13:2 with 17:9-11, it is clear that from the writer's standpoint the Beast (which the Dragon delegates his authority to AFTER having been cast out of heaven) has already been around for some time (namely, the six kings or emperors that have fallen), while one of the former kings was due to return after the present king (i.e. the head of the Beast that was killed and then healed, in 13:2).
Beyond that, it is hard to say because the NT texts vary on this matter. Revelation 17 would imply sometime prior to Julius or Augustus Caesar (depending on who was considered the first of the seven kings), while Revelation 12 would point to the time of Jesus' birth (if indeed it does have such an interpretation; this is debatable). The logion in Luke 10:18 suggests that Satan's fall has already occurred ("I saw Satan fall like lightening from heaven") for this author, while the Johannine texts point to the time of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection as the time Satan was defeated (cf. John 12:31-32, 14:30, 16:11, 33), which also has parallels with Pauline and sub-Pauline texts about the humiliation of the archons, principalities and powers (cf. Philippians 2:7-10, Colossians 1:19-20, 2:14-15, Ephesians 1:20-23; cf. 1 Peter 3:21-22).
Papias of Hierapolis (c. AD 140) gave the earliest known interpretation of Revelation 12, and described the "war" as one that has occurred throughout all of human history since Creation, with Michael and his legions giving the Mosaic Law to Israel to fight the Devil and his temptations, but Satan was not completely defeated until Christ came, fulfulling the Law in his body and who "defeated sin and condemned Satan, and through his death he spread abroad his righteousness over all. As this occurred, the victory of Michael and his legions, the guardians of mankind, became complete, and the dragon could resist no more, because the death of Christ exposed him to ridicule and threw him to earth" (Fr. 24, cited by Andrew of Caesarea).
But what does Revelation itself suggest as the timeframe for this battle?Doesn't the Society's version suggest that heaven was out of control until then--kind of like another earth?
I think revelation suggests a time frame of the end of gentile times . The devil apparently was wreaking havok in heaven from the garden of eden to the time he was removed from living in the kingdom of the heavens . Thus the scripture was fullfilled of the bruising in the head . I think it's pretty clear that these things took place around the end of the world time as the devil only had a short while to wreak havok on earth . Be gad you heavens and woe to the earth for the devil has come down to you knowing he has a short time . something like that
Hey there, I think, Michael battling the devil, is a parallel account of him battling the governments. The devil gave it's power to the last government to rule. And Michael takes on the governments at Armaggedon. I also think the Armaggedon is the BEGINNING of the great Tribulation not the end. And I think the 'short period of time' is the great tribulation. I believe that the battle against the devil and throwing him from heaven, is Michael defaming him and conquering evil bringing him down in glory. I don't think that Satan is thrown out of the place where God lives and is on the vicinity of the earth.
The dubs played a lot of tricks with the supposed events occuring in the invisible world, no one can verify them as no one can see that world so such ideas are better rejected as trickery. Especially that invisible return of the Christ, the invisible inspection, and the invisible choosing of the JWs as the approved religion, the dubs really took liberties with such unverifiable events.
So who knows when will satan have his power confined to the lowly realms of the earth? It may be the war that began when Christ was on earth and continues with the church fighting satan to this day, a war that spans the millenia.
The child born will rule all the nations something that satan was doing up to that time. They will throw him out of business.
This talk of real life imagery reminds me of the "what is Scientology" article on my home page today!
symbolically speaking tho, might the bad found in all of us (no one is perfect), at any one time be everywhere?
One man's evil is another man's tolerance - even the bible standards have new interpretations.
Jesus supposedly talked to satan.."I rebuke thee" was he on earth then?
If Adam and Eve were full-filling God's original plan, by living on a paradise earth - If the serpent was the devil was he on earth then?
or
if satan was "hurled" to earth for his short time (and there is hardly anytime left right?) - then I think the 1850s- + 70 years would be an excellent place to start, since shortly after that many er um (cough) religions were started up for one last whirlwind of spiritual distraction!
If we could think of 7 - maybe that has some symbolic significance as well! Or is it 12?
I am guessing on a few names - anyone know more?
Ladocia? - CT Russell
mormons
7th day
Spiritualism (1920s Houdini, spiritism resurrgence.
TRUTH, SOJOURNER (c. 1797-1883), evangelist, abolitionist, and feminist. Preached on Street Corners!!!
there are som many!!
The JWs, of course, claim this occurred in 1914, thus making the way for the new heavenly order with Christ (Michael) having won the battle and taking his place on the throne.
okay... now I'm confused If Satan wasn't kicked out of heaven until 1914, what was he doing on earth in a snakesuit tempting Eve several milleniums before?
Great topic A.
p.s. A question/observation for the benefit of lurkers or others who still think the JWs have so many truths....
If JWs say Jesus can't be god because when he was on earth - who was in heaven running things :-)
then if the devil isn't on earth now - who's running all the bad shit?
and if he (it) hasn't been hurled yet
is it his spirit that influences all the bad? The bad spirit...is it more powerful than god's spirit?
If god is spirit - must be good spirit - just can't seem to get the upperhand...(only being able to touch 144,000 creatures)
