by Fe2O3Girl 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Thanks for your replies!
Blondie - I think that the scripture you quoted fits with Narkissos's comments on the separate idea of "sacrifice" and "ransom".
It still all seems a bit fuzzy to me. I would be interested to hear the thoughts of more Christian posters on this subject. Or don't mainstream Christians have a view on it?
RR - Sounds like the JWs have not changed from the Bible Students on this!
Rachel
Nark
Among the many NT models of interpretation of Jesus' death, "ransom" and "sacrifice" are two distinct metaphors which are never linked together: in the NT there is no such thing as a "ransom sacrifice" -- neither the equation between Adam and Jesus in terms of "life value," or the idea that either was "perfect". All that is WT stuff, not the Bible.
I'm not sure what you mean, but, this looks like an "equation" to me.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned: 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come; 15 but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the free gift shall not be as by one having sinned; (for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification. 17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.
D Dog
For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many
Try this
For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many
A Paduan
What's your point? That just happenned to be the Modern King James.
D Dog
DD,
First Romans 5 is not about "ransom," even less "restoration" of what Adam is supposed to have "lost".
There is a comparison between Adam as the founder/representative of "natural mankind" and Christ as the founder/representative of a "new mankind," but the comparison is definitely not an equation (Adam = Christ): instead it extols the superiority of Christ (Christ > Adam). Note all the asymmetrical expressions:
Romans 5:12 Therefore, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned: 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 But death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is the type of Him who was to come; 15 but the free gift shall not be also like the offense. For if by the offense of the one many died, much more the grace of God, and the gift in grace; which is of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the free gift shall not be as by one having sinned; (for indeed the judgment was of one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offenses to justification. 17 For if by one man's offense death reigned by one, much more they who receive abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by One, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by one offense sentence came on all men to condemnation, even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous.
The point of the comparison is that Christ gives new mankind much more than Adam gave old mankind. Even if we reason in WT terms, namely of what Adam has lost (instead of "given" in Paul's logic), the fact remains that what Christ gives is much more than Adam could ever have lost. Felix culpa?
In Pauline thought Jesus is not "a perfect man," he is the heavenly Son of God. An equation with the earthly Adam is out of question (cf. a probably former version of the comparison in 1 Corinthians 15).
Nark Thanks for clearing that up.
First Romans 5 is not about "ransom," even less "restoration" of what Adam is supposed to have "lost".
Maybe I'm splitting hairs here, But it does talk about "being reconciled" the idea of peace with God being restored.
Roman 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
There is a comparison between Adam as the founder/representative of "natural mankind" and Christ as the founder/representative of a "new mankind," but the comparison is definitely not an equation (Adam = Christ): instead it extols the superiority of Christ (Christ > Adam). Note all the asymmetrical expressions:
Agreed!
I'm thinking more along the lines of imputation. You know "...as through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned"
=
"...even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came to all men to justification of life."
Thanks again
D Dog
I never understood....I think I am dense....We still die and are still waiting....so how do we benefit from the ransom?
Ultimately this is a logic puzzle.
But, it is illogical.
Consequently, what religion attempts to do is justify an illogical presentation of "facts".
These bogus "facts" are the result of thousands of years of incremental apologist's efforts.
This sort of mental problem often manifests itself among certain human beings in a condition known as Munchausen's Syndrome.
MUNCHAUSEN'S SYNDROME BY PROXY
The term "Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy" , describes a somewhat less extreme form of child abuse in which a parent deliberately induced injury in their child, or, reported injuries which did not exist. By stepping in and "rescuing" the child the parent can then be viewed as heroic.
Tragically, MSBP victims are usually children, and the perpetrators are almost always parents or parent substitutes. If and when victims are hospitalized, they may be subjected to multiple, and at times, dangerous diagnostic procedures that invariably produce negative or confounding results. When the victim and abuser are separated, however, the victim's symptoms cease. When confronted, the abuser characteristically denies any knowledge of how the child's illness occurred.
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In other words, God suffers from this rescue syndrome because He (as a parent) allows abuse of his "children" both by permitting death and evil as well as by approving of the sacrificial death of his own son.
This so-called "provision for mankind's salvation" is nothing more than a manifestation of this insane syndrome.
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Great observation Terry!
