Dozy - More Clarification on the UN Issue?

by slimboyfat 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    I found this in another thread on this board posted by Nicolaou (highlighting mine):

    *** w91 6/1 15-20 Their Refuge-A Lie! ***

    Their Refuge—A Lie!

    “We have made a lie our refuge and in falsehood we have concealed ourselves.”—ISAIAH 28:15.

    DO THOSE words apply to Christendom today as they did to the ancient two-tribe kingdom of Judah? Surely, they do! And that parallel bodes ill for modern-day Christendom. It means that catastrophe will soon overtake that apostate religious organization.

    2 To the north of Judah was the ten-tribe kingdom of Israel. When Israel proved faithless, Jehovah allowed her to be conquered by Assyria in 740 B.C.E. Her sister kingdom, Judah, witnessed this tragic event but clearly felt that such a thing would never happen to her. ‘Why,’ her leaders boasted, ‘is not Jehovah’s temple in Jerusalem? Are we not God’s favored people? Do not our priests and prophets speak in Jehovah’s name?’ (Compare Jeremiah 7:4, 8-11.) Those religious leaders were confident that they were safe. But they were wrong! They were just as faithless as their northern kinsmen. So, what happened to Samaria would also happen to Jerusalem.

    3 In a similar way, Christendom claims to have a special relationship with God. ‘Why,’ she boasts, ‘we have tens of thousands of churches and a professional clergy, as well as hundreds of millions of adherents. We also possess the Bible, and we use the name of Jesus in our worship. Surely, we are favored by God!’ But what happened to ancient Jerusalem stands as a stern warning. Despite recent extraordinary political developments, we know that Jehovah will soon act decisively against Christendom and all other false religions.
    “A Covenant With Death”

    4 In ancient times, unfaithful Jerusalem received many warnings through God’s true prophets, but she did not believe them. Instead, she bragged that death would never take her down into Sheol, the grave, as it had taken the northern kingdom of Israel down. Isaiah the prophet was inspired to say to Judah: “Therefore hear the word of Jehovah, you braggarts, you rulers of this people who are in Jerusalem: Because you men have said: ‘We have concluded a covenant with Death; and with Sheol we have effected a vision; the overflowing flash flood, in case it should pass through, will not come to us, for we have made a lie our refuge and in falsehood we have concealed ourselves.’”—Isaiah 28:14, 15.

    5 Yes, Jerusalem’s leaders thought they had an agreement, as it were, with death and Sheol so that their city would be preserved. But did Jerusalem’s supposed covenant with death mean that she had repented of her sins and now trusted in Jehovah for salvation? (Jeremiah 8:6, 7) Not at all! Rather, she turned to human political rulers for help. But her reliance on worldly allies was a delusion, a lie. The worldlings she trusted could not save her. And since she abandoned Jehovah, Jehovah abandoned Jerusalem. It happened just as the prophet Azariah had warned King Asa: “Jehovah is with you as long as you prove to be with him; and if you search for him, he will let himself be found by you, but if you leave him he will leave you.”—2 Chronicles 15:2.

    6 Confident in their political alliances, Jerusalem’s leaders were sure that no “overflowing flash flood” of invading armies would come near them to disturb their peace and security. When threatened by an alliance of Israel and Syria, Judah turned to Assyria for help. (2 Kings 16:5-9) Later, when menaced by the military forces of Babylon, she appealed to Egypt for support and Pharaoh responded, sending an army to help.—Jeremiah 37:5-8; Ezekiel 17:11-15.

    7 But Babylon’s armies were too powerful, and Egypt’s troops had to withdraw. Jerusalem’s placing confidence in Egypt proved to be a mistake, and in 607 B.C.E., Jehovah abandoned her to the destruction he had foretold. So Jerusalem’s rulers and priests were wrong! Their trust in worldly alliances for peace and security was “a lie” that was swept away by the flash flood of Babylon’s armies.
    Rejecting the “Tried Stone”

    8 Is there a parallel situation today? Yes, there is. The clergy of Christendom also feel that no calamity will overtake them. In effect, they say as Isaiah foretold: “We have concluded a covenant with Death; and with Sheol we have effected a vision; the overflowing flash flood, in case it should pass through, will not come to us, for we have made a lie our refuge and in falsehood we have concealed ourselves.” (Isaiah 28:15) Like ancient Jerusalem, Christendom looks to worldly alliances for security, and her clergy refuse to take refuge in Jehovah. Why, they do not even use his name, and they mock and persecute those who do honor that name. Christendom’s clergy have done just what the Jewish chief priests in the first century did when they rejected Christ. They have said, in effect, “We have no king but Caesar.”—John 19:15.

    9 Today, Jehovah’s Witnesses warn that a flood of executional armies will soon sweep over Christendom. Moreover, they point to the true place of refuge from that flood. They quote Isaiah 28:16, which says: “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: ‘Here I am laying as a foundation in Zion a stone, a tried stone, the precious corner of a sure foundation. No one exercising faith will get panicky.’” Who is this ‘precious cornerstone’? The apostle Peter quoted these words and applied them to Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 2:6) If Christendom had sought peace with Jehovah’s King, Jesus Christ, then she would have avoided the coming flash flood.—Compare Luke 19:42-44.

    10 However, she has not done so. Instead, in her quest for peace and security, she insinuates herself into the favor of the political leaders of the nations—this despite the Bible’s warning that friendship with the world is enmity with God. (James 4:4) Moreover, in 1919 she strongly advocated the League of Nations as man’s best hope for peace. Since 1945 she has put her hope in the United Nations. (Compare Revelation 17:3, 11.) How extensive is her involvement with this organization?

    11 A recent book gives an idea when it states: “No less than twenty-four Catholic organizations are represented at the UN. Several of the world’s religious leaders have visited the international organization. Most memorable were the visits of His Holiness Pope Paul VI during the General Assembly in 1965 and of Pope John Paul II in 1979. Many religions have special invocations, prayers, hymns and services for the United Nations. The most important examples are those of the Catholic, the Unitarian-Universalist, the Baptist and the Bahai faiths.”
    Vain Hopes for Peace

    12 One of the world’s most powerful political leaders echoed the hopes of many when he said: “This generation of people on earth may witness the advent of an irreversible period of peace in the history of civilization.” Was he right? Do recent developments mean that the warnings Jehovah’s Witnesses have issued concerning Jehovah’s execution of judgment on the nations will not come true? Are Jehovah’s Witnesses wrong?

    13 No, they are not wrong. They know they are telling the truth because they put their trust in Jehovah and in the Bible, which is God’s own Word of truth. Titus 1:2 says: “God . . . cannot lie.” So they have full confidence that when a Bible prophecy says that a certain thing will happen, it will without fail come to pass. Jehovah himself states: “So my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted.”—Isaiah 55:11.

    14 In the years before the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E., Jeremiah reported that the leaders were crying, “There is peace! There is peace!” (Jeremiah 8:11) However, that was a lie. Jerusalem was destroyed in fulfillment of the inspired warnings of Jehovah’s true prophets. The apostle Paul warned that something similar would happen in our day. He said that men would be crying “Peace and security!” But then, he said, “sudden destruction” would be “instantly upon them.”—1 Thessalonians 5:3.

    15 As we entered the 1990’s, newspapers and magazines everywhere were saying that the Cold War is over and that world peace is at last in sight. But then a shooting war broke out in the Middle East. However, sooner or later the world situation will develop to the point where the cry of “Peace and security!” prophesied at 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3 will increase to a climax. With our hopes firmly anchored in God’s Word, we know that, as that climax is reached, God’s judgments will be executed swiftly and unerringly. No patched-up peace and security pronouncements should make us think that destruction foretold by God will not come. Jehovah’s judgments are unchangeably recorded in his Word the Bible. Christendom, along with all other false religion, will be destroyed. And then Jehovah’s destructive judgments will be expressed against the rest of Satan’s world. (2 Thessalonians 1:6-8; 2:8; Revelation 18:21; 19:19-21) Since Jehovah’s Witnesses are confident that Jehovah will fulfill his word, they continue to keep on the watch under the guidance of the faithful and discreet slave class and carefully observe how world events unfold. (Matthew 24:45-47) Certainly, no peacemaking efforts of man should make us think that Jehovah has abandoned his purpose to bring a flash flood of destruction on sin-laden Christendom.
    ‘God Is Our Refuge’

    16 Some may take offense at the frankness of Jehovah’s Witnesses in proclaiming this. However, when they say that Christendom’s religious rulers have taken refuge in a lying arrangement, they merely relate what the Bible says. When they say that Christendom deserves punishment because she has become a part of the world, they merely report what God himself says in the Bible. (Philippians 3:18, 19) Moreover, because Christendom puts her confidence in the schemes proposed by this world, she actually supports the god of this world, Satan the Devil, who Jesus said is the father of the lie.—John 8:44; 2 Corinthians 4:4.

    17 Therefore, Jehovah’s Witnesses declare: As for us, we do not encourage false hopes of world peace because of the changing political scene. Instead, we echo the words of the psalmist: “God is a refuge for us. . . . The sons of earthling man are an exhalation, the sons of mankind are a lie. When laid upon the scales they are all together lighter than an exhalation.” (Psalm 62:8, 9) Human schemes to promote and preserve Christendom and the rest of this system of things are a falsehood, a lie! All of them put together have no more power to forestall Jehovah’s purposes than does a mouthful of hot air!

    18 Jehovah’s Witnesses also quote Psalm 33, verses 17 to 19, which declares: “The horse [of Egypt, symbolizing warfare] is a deception for salvation, and by the abundance of its vital energy it does not afford escape. Look! The eye of Jehovah is toward those fearing him, to those waiting for his loving-kindness, to deliver their soul from death itself, and to preserve them alive in famine.” Today, true Christians trust in Jehovah and in his heavenly Kingdom, the only arrangement that can bring permanent peace.
    Christendom “a Trampling Place”

    19 To trust any man-made substitute for God’s Kingdom makes that substitute an image, an object of worship. (Revelation 13:14, 15) Thus, encouraging reliance on political institutions, such as the United Nations, for peace and security is an illusion, a lie. Concerning such objects of false hopes, Jeremiah says: “His molten image is a falsehood, and there is no spirit in them. They are vanity, a work of mockery. In the time of their being given attention they will perish.” (Jeremiah 10:14, 15) Therefore, the war-horses of antitypical Egypt, that is, the military-political might of the nations today, will not protect the religious realm of Christendom in her day of crisis. The alliance of Christendom’s religions with this world will surely fail to protect them.

    20 Christendom rested her hopes in the League of Nations, but it was overturned even without the coming of Armageddon. Now she has transferred her allegiance to the United Nations. But it will soon have to face “the war of the great day of God the Almighty,” and it will not survive. (Revelation 16:14) Even a revived UN can never bring peace and security. God’s prophetic Word shows that the United Nations organization with its member nations “will battle with the Lamb [Christ in Kingdom power], but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them.”—Revelation 17:14.

    21 Jehovah’s Witnesses confidently say that there is no salvation for Christendom in her alliances with Satan’s world. And when they say this, they are merely pointing out what the Bible itself says. Isaiah 28:17, 18 quotes Jehovah as saying: “I will make justice the measuring line and righteousness the leveling instrument; and the hail must sweep away the refuge of a lie, and the waters themselves will flood out the very place of concealment. And your covenant with Death will certainly be dissolved, and that vision of yours with Sheol will not stand. The overflowing flash flood, when it passes through—you must also become for it a trampling place.”

    22 When Jehovah’s judicial decision is carried out, it will be according to perfect justice. And Christendom’s basis for confidence, her “covenant with Death,” will be completely swept away as if by a flash flood. Isaiah goes on to say: “Morning by morning it will pass through, during the day and during the night; and it must become nothing but a reason for quaking to make others understand what has been heard.” (Isaiah 28:19) How terrifying it will be for onlookers to witness the full power of Jehovah’s judgment! How awful for Christendom’s clergy and their followers to find out, too late, that they have trusted in a lie!
    Jehovah’s Name “a Strong Tower”

    23 But what of Jehovah’s Witnesses? Even in the face of international hatred and persecution, they persist in keeping separate from the world. They never forget that Jesus said of his followers: “They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.” (John 17:16) Throughout these last days, they have put their trust in Jehovah’s Kingdom, not in human schemes. Therefore, Christendom’s calamity will not cause Jehovah’s Witnesses to be terrified. As Isaiah foretold: “No one exercising faith will get panicky.”—Isaiah 28:16.

    24 Proverbs 18:10 says: “The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous runs and is given protection.” We therefore invite all sheeplike persons to take refuge in Jehovah and in his Kingdom by Christ. As a concealment place, Jehovah is no falsehood! His Kingdom by Christ is no lie! Christendom’s refuge is a lie, but the refuge of true Christians is the truth.

    Can You Explain?
    • How did ancient Judah take refuge in a lie?
    • In what way has Christendom tried to conceal herself in falsehood?
    • How did Isaiah warn Judah, and how do Jehovah’s Witnesses utter a similar warning today?
    • How will Christendom find that her confidence is misplaced?
    • In contrast with Christendom, what stand do Jehovah’s Witnesses maintain?

    [Study Questions]
    1, 2. (a) Which organization today should take note of what happened to the ancient kingdom of Judah? (b) What misplaced confidence did Judah have?
    3. Why does Christendom feel confident as to the future, but is there good reason for her confidence?
    4. What covenant did Judah think she had made?
    5. (a) What was Judah’s supposed covenant with death? (b) What warning given to King Asa had Judah forgotten?
    6, 7. What steps did Judah take to ensure her security, but with what final result?
    8. How has Christendom taken a position very much like that of ancient Judah?
    9. (a) Who is warning Christendom today in the same way that Isaiah warned Judah? (b) To whom should Christendom turn?
    10. What involvements has Christendom cultivated?
    11. What representation does religion have at the UN?
    12, 13. Despite widespread hopes that peace is on the horizon, why are Jehovah’s Witnesses confident that their warnings are true?
    14, 15. (a) What were the leaders of Judah proclaiming shortly before Jerusalem’s destruction in 607 B.C.E.? (b) What did Paul foretell would be proclaimed before sudden destruction would come upon this world? (c) What can we expect at the climax of the proclamation prophesied at 1 Thessalonians 5:3?
    16, 17. How do Jehovah’s Witnesses respond if some take offense at the frankness of their message?
    18. What warning of the psalmist is appropriate today?
    19. Why is reliance on political organizations to bring world peace an illusion?
    20, 21. (a) What happened to the League of Nations, and why will the United Nations fare no better? (b) How did Isaiah show that Christendom’s alliances with the world will not save her?
    22. When perfect justice is applied to Christendom, what will result?
    23, 24. Rather than seeking security in this world, what will Jehovah’s Witnesses do?
    [Box on page 17]

    HIGH HOPES VOICED FOR THE UNITED NATIONS
    “For the first time since World War II the international community is united. The leadership of the United Nations, once only a hoped-for ideal, is now confirming its founders’ vision. . . . The world can therefore seize this opportunity to fulfill the long-held promise of a new world order.”—President Bush of the United States in his State of the Union message to that nation, January 29, 1991

  • dozy
    dozy

    Auldsoul - I have already answered your questions. Remember - I'm not a WT apologist - I'm actively exploring whether there is any information fatal to my beliefs.

    Like many of your colleagues who are in the ex-witness camp , I just don't see this as a major issue. Opposers have crawled all over this for years, examining in minutae articles in the magazines , UN policy documents etc. There must be 20 threads in "the best of" section. Some seem a bit obsessed with this UN / DPI business. and it must therefore be frustrating when others do not feel that this is so important.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    *** w91 6/1 p. 17 Their Refuge—A Lie! ***
    10 However, she has not done so. Instead, in her quest for peace and security, she insinuates herself into the favor of the political leaders of the nations—this despite the Bible’s warning that friendship with the world is enmity with God. (James 4:4) Moreover, in 1919 she strongly advocated the League of Nations as man’s best hope for peace. Since 1945 she has put her hope in the United Nations. (Compare Revelation 17:3, 11.) How extensive is her involvement with this organization?
    11 A recent book gives an idea when it states: “No less than twenty-four Catholic organizations are represented at the UN. Several of the world’s religious leaders have visited the international organization. Most memorable were the visits of His Holiness Pope Paul VI during the General Assembly in 1965 and of Pope John Paul II in 1979. Many religions have special invocations, prayers, hymns and services for the United Nations. The most important examples are those of the Catholic, the Unitarian-Universalist, the Baptist and the Bahai faiths.”

    I read the book this was from. There is no such thing as "NGO status" with the UN, the UN/ECOSOC, the UN/DPI or any other un agency or department. There is "accredited status," a status which implies credentialed status which would differ markedly from non-credentialed status. The book this quote was taken from noted that such organizations are "accredited to the UN" which was technically a mistatement. By far the majority of these religious organization are accredited to the UN/ECOSOC, however NONE of them are accredited to the UN, itself. The UN forbids such membership on the part of organization which are non-governmental in nature. Vatican City cannot even obtain more than an observer status with the UN because it walks a pretty fine line between a governmental and a non-governmental organization.

    However, such accredited status can never be enjoyed with the UN itself by NGOs, since any organizations which are non-governmental in nature are forbidden from joining the UN. The act which results in credentials, i.e. accreditation, is "joining" or variously "associating," "affiliating," "partnering," "becoming a member." All these terms are synonymous, in the business world they mean the same thing.

    It should be understood clearly that the WTS is absolutely correct in their explanation of the term "NGO." Although, you and many others seem to continue to miss the point. Kroger or Albertson's grocery store chains are examples of organization that are non-governmental. Typically, the term NGO would specifically relate to non-profit or not-for-profit organizations (NPOs) but that is not strictly true, it is just a fairly approximate generalization. EVERY organization that is not governmental is automatically an NGO. The vast majority of these are not in any way connected to the UN or its departments.

    The term NGO has no unique or special significance in the UN context, it is like describing an organization as large or small, financially prosperous or financially struggling...governmental or non-governmental. The UN/DPI doesn't have an NGO status, they have an Associate status available for NGOs to apply for. You cannot apply for that Associate status to the UN/DPI because you are not an organization. The Dominican Republic cannot apply for that Associate status because it is a governmental organization. The Associate membership to the UN/DPI is only available for NGOs, no other type of entity is permitted to apply for that membership type.

    There are special provisions for non-governmental organizations to affiliate/associate to (join, become accredited to) various UN Departments, each department that has such an NGO Associate status having its own Criteria for Association which criteria are developed departmentally entirely independent of other UN Departments. Becoming accredited to one department does not accredit your organization to another department.

    In the case of the UN/DPI, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. applied for an Associate membership to the UN/DPI. The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society was a non-governmental organization long before they applied. They were a non-governmental organization throughout their period of maintained membership to the UN/DPI, and they remain a non-governmental organization at this very moment. They are an organization, and they are not a governmental organization, therefore, they are a non-governmental organization.

    They always have been and always will be an NGO, unless they manage to buy Brooklyn and create their own country.

    With regard to the articles being submitted to the UN as proof of their "support," my father would be more help to you than I would. He called them and they read the entire membership application to him over the phone. He didn't remember the article references they submitted initially and failed to ask whether there were followup efforts required to maintain the relationship.

    But, my frank response to such inquiries is I personally don't care whether there is proof of compliance with the Criteria for Association. To me, that is extra crap that muddies the water and plays to their strengths, double-talk and obfuscation. There is no need to dig deeper than what they admit to and what they have published.

    They applied to become a member of an organization they publicly declare as disapproved by God in order to receive what they considered a benefit from that organization (library access). They received accreditation to that organization as a member and routinely used that accreditation in the collection of information, specifically accessing library information that is NOT available to the public at large.

    So, I would be a poor choice of someone to ask about proof of article submission, but it is a great question to ask if you want to sidetrack the average apostate into chasing lots of wild hares down rabbit holes that lead away from the 10-point buck standing right outside those holes.

    Those two questions I asked, how would you answer slimboyfat?

    1. According to JW dogma, is the UN/DPI a secular organization with objectives contrary to the Bible and which God disapproves? (Isaiah 2:4; Revelation 19:17-21)
    2. Did the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. choose to join the UN/DPI and maintain an Associate membership with that organization for almost 10 years?

    The way I see it, everything else is a distraction from the primary issue. The issue is whether the WTS applies its policies to itself THE SAME WAY it applies its policies to the sheeple it claims to be shepherding.

    The answer, in this case, is strikingly obvious.

    BTW, Dozy, I am one of those for whom this issue was the turning point. It was the rampant dodging and misrepresentation on the part of the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses that caused me to finally leave, but that tendency was shown up during my quest to get some clarification of this issue.

    ...it would seem that the NGO registration was regarded as so un-important...

    This fragment contains a glaring misrepresentation, Dozy. I know the only source of this misrepresentation, and I have come to believe it is an intentional deceit on their part. Can you explain what the misrepresentation is in this fragment?

    ...

    ...

    There is no such thing as a registrant status to the UN/DPI. No one CAN register, no one can WITHDRAW registration, the relationship described here is a phantom. It doesn't exist. There never has been a registrant/registrar relationship between any NGO and any UN department...ever. That is per a personal phone conversation with Paul Hoeffel. You may recognize the name.

    I was not inquiring about the WTS relationship, I was inquiring about general terms trying to get things factually correct. I asked that he not treat the questions casually but that he respond very critically to improper terminology as I described the process of becoming an Associate to the UN/DPI. He apparently assumed I was in school working on a thesis paper that would be subject to critical review. I allowed him that assumption. I described the process as related by the WTS and he corrected me several times along the way when I referred to registration, specifically stating that this is not a registration but an Associate membership to a UN Department. He explained that "registration with the UN/DPI is not possible."

    You are perpetuating a lie the WTS tells to make itself look better. Accroding to the Governing Body, there is nothing wrong with registering with a secular organization, even one disapproved by God (although if it harms someone's conscience that should be considered). There is something wrong with joining an organization disapproved by God, there is something wrong with maintaining a membership to one. In fact, according to the Governing Body, it is so wrong that the Governing Body said that any person who does that has already voluntarily disassociated him or herself.

    The problem is, they don't apply the same standard to themselves, as an organization, that they apply to the sheep—despite the fact that they should be more accountable for their actions (not less accountable). The degree of wrongdoing is no different from joining the YMCA, but the accountability is much greater for the teacher than for the student, for the judge than for those judged.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • TheListener
    TheListener

    Slimboy, in response to your second request regarding firm evidence for submitted articles for NGO status.

    Here is one link I'm aware of where the UN OHCHR uses an Awake article as an example of a supportive write-up.

    http://www.unhchr.ch/udhr/materials/articles.htm

    Here is the link to the UN NGO website. This website specifically states that

    http://www.un.org/dpi/ngosection/application-pro.html

    For those who can't link here is an excerpt of what is required (I messed up the formatting):

  • Evidence of an active information programme relevant to the UN: at least six (6) different types of samples of the organization’s most recent information materials (e.g. newsletter, periodical, tapes of radio or television programmes, conference reports, website, news clippings) (Note: Electronic materials, such as a website or periodicals, should be sent in hard copy form.);
  • Two (2) letters of recommendation from organizations (UN or others);
  • 3. The NGO needs to submit all the requested materials. Once all the required materials are received and all the documents are in order, the DPI/NGO Section will write to the NGO informing them of the approximate date the DPI Committee on NGOs will meet to review the new applications for that period. As mentioned above, the DPI Committee on NGOs that decides on association and disassociation meets twice a year, in June/July and December.
  • Using deductive logic:

    All UN NGO applicants must submit 6 articles or other material as stated in the application. The WTS was a UN NGO. Therefore the WTS submitted at least 6 articles or other material as stated in the application.

  • Pole
    Pole

    Dozy,

    :3... The UN business is well known in my cong as we have a very vocal population of “born again” individuals who want to discuss the UN business every time someone calls at their door , so the brothers are well informed on the situation and the WTS defence. We even had a 20 minute "local needs" on the subject. I don’t know how well known it is amongst the JW population at large.

    A 20-minute local needs. Wow. By "well-informing the brothers" do you mean that the well-know library card excuse letter was read out to them? I mean the one that was circulated to congregations around the world? Or did they get a special letter from the Society and if so could you please post it here or relate its contents?

    Were the brothers even shown the official response of the UN DPI published on their website?

    Pole

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    1. According to JW dogma, is the UN/DPI a secular organization with objectives contrary to the Bible and which God disapproves? (Isaiah 2:4; Revelation 19:17-21)
    2. Did the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. choose to join the UN/DPI and maintain an Associate membership with that organization for almost 10 years?

    No, Dozy, you didn't answer my questions. You falsely accused the first of being a trick question and "answered" it with misrepresentations of facts that are a matter of public record and are easily disproven, and you "answered" the second with a question. I do however believe that you are not an apologist. I also believe you are sincere in your questions and that your posted viewpoints are representative of your true beliefs.

    I am not examining minutiae, nor do I believe such examination is necessary or productive on this issue. I am examining the basic nature of the relationship created (which as of your most recent post that mentioned it you still betray ignorance of) and examining the policies which would apply to any individual found to have done the same thing.

    Try this one on for size, maybe it will be simpler for you as a starting point.

    1. According to Governing Body dogma, would Jehovah (a) approve, (b) disapprove, or (c) be neutral toward the UN Department of Public Information?

    See, this is an important question because unless your answer is (a) or (c) then the WTS chose to join a secular organization disapproved by God (according to their doctrine) and they voluntarily disassociated themselves from the Christian congregation (according to their enforcement of their own policy).

    It seems that you are discounting my interest in this subject based on what other people have done with this issue, which hardly seems fair to me.

    There is no avoiding the inevitable conclusion that intellectual honesty will lead you to after asking yourself these basic, simple, uncomplicated questions and examining the frequently enforced policy on page 151 of the om book and page 155 of the od book. The WTS applied a cheating pair of scales and a second set of weights to themselves and they have not repented of the membership (or even candidly acknowledged that it was a membership, for that matter) nor have they made any attempt to right the wrongs they have done to many, MANY people's reputation and good name.

    Nor do I expect they ever will attempt to right those wrongs, because now I see what they are and I see what they have never really been. They are deceivers. They actively practice deceit, they have it down to an art form.

    Now, that may not include Paul Gillies, I don't know him. But it certainly comes from some place high enough in the organization that they were able to fool Paul Gillies into parroting their deceits. How high would that have to be, Dozy?

    Every attempt to add to the reasons behind the membership, every attempt to add to the weight of evidence in favor of them trying to meet the terms of the membership, every mistaken reference to a "registration," or a reference to "NGO status with the UN," helps these deceivers to maintain the illusion they have created and weakens the possibility they will ever be held accountable for what they did: Judge others for what they themselves were doing.

    Paul calls it "inexcusable" and comes across as very much righteously indignant at those who would think they could do such a thing. I respond the same way. How would you have me respond to 10 years of spiritual fornication that the fornicator ceased after discovery and being outed, but to this day (almost 5 years later) the fornicator only admits to "passionate kissing?" How should I respond to that, Dozy?

    You're right, it pisses me off. Big time.

    Partly because my uncle drafted the letter that (in large part) became current WTS policy on YMCA membership, so I know that doctrine inside and out and I know for sure that the reasoning presented applies with equal force to Associate memberships with the UN/DPI.

    Partly because the membership breached a Resolution passed by 454,977 conventioners in 1963 (among whom were my aunts and uncles, grandparents on both sides, maternal great-grandparents, and both of my parents).

    Partly because they lied to me and my BOE about the relationship and caused my father (my congregation's PO) to question my motives in asking.

    But mostly...MOSTLY because they presumtuously and hypocritically judge others as unfit for God's Kingdom based on the EXACT same kind of relationship they themselves are guilty of, a voluntary membership to an organization the Governing Body has labeled as one disapproved by God. THAT is "inexcusable." (Romans 2:1, 2) If there is no excuse for it, why do they excuse it? Because they are not what they write about themselves, they are believing the press they wrote.

    Psalm 146:3 Is your trust placed (even partly) in a man-made organization, governed by men, whose doctrines are—by their own admission—inherently flawed and suspect because they are nothing more than the doctrines of overeager men? You know, that term "overeager" has an interesting definition and set of synonyms. I think the term accurately describes the Governing Body, but poorly describes those used by God.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • scrubmaster
    scrubmaster

    Is the UN thing that hard to understand -- I challenge any witness to Join the YMCA and say oh we are only doing it for the pool, basketball and etc -- they would be in serious trouble probably DF --- why it is so hard to see --

  • Justitia Themis
    Justitia Themis

    Dozy:

    You mentioned that your congregation had a needs part on this subject. I would be disfellowshipped for breathing about it here. Could you please pass on the defenses? While this does not convince me to "leave," I suspect it is something that crossed the line for which we should be honest. I find the press release from the Governing Body that we became an NGO to "get a library card" hard to defend, especially in view of the following Questions from Readers. While we didn't "join" the UN, we did promise to support their goals, which is the precise reason we are not allowed to join the YMCA. So, I am looking for any defense material.

    *** w79 1/1 p. 30 Questions from Readers ***

    Questions from Readers

    Is it true that for religious reasons Jehovah’s Witnesses may not become members of the YMCA (Young Men’s Christian Association)?Yes, that is so. We have long recognized that the YMCA, though not being a church as such, is definitely aligned with the religious organizations of Christendom in efforts to promote interfaith.

    In September 1885 the Watch Tower took this position:

    "Alas for the Bible-rearing practiced in the Y. M. C. Associations! They are completely under the control of the sectarians, by whom they are supported. Though professedly non-sectarian, professedly controlled by no creed but the Bible, they are more creed-bound than others, since they are bound by all the popular creeds."—P. 6.

    Later the underlying religious purpose and interfaith efforts of the YMCA were mentioned in the September 1964 issue of Kingdom Ministry, used by Jehovah’s Witnesses in one of their meetings.

    Many persons think of the "Y" simply as a social organization that offers various services, such as a swimming pool, facilities for athletic training and a place for clubs to meet. Commendable as some of these provisions may be, it is important to bear in mind that the YMCA was founded with a distinctly religious basis. This was set out at a World Alliance in Paris in 1855. The main part of that official statement (called the Paris Basis) reads:

    "The Young Men’s Christian Associations seek to unite those young men, who, regarding Jesus Christ as their God and Saviour, according to the Holy Scriptures, desire to be His disciples in their faith and in their life, and to associate their efforts for the extension of His Kingdom amongst young men." (Italics added)

    While in some countries churches may not be the YMCA’s main source of revenue and while membership is open to persons of all races, nationalities and religions, the fundamental religious objectives of the "Y" cannot be ignored.

    ‘Consequently, there is ample evidence that the YMCA originated with religious objectives and continues to have such to this day.

    In joining the YMCA as a member a person accepts or endorses the general objectives and principles of the organization. He is not simply paying for something he receives, such as when buying things being sold to the public at a store. (Compare 1 Corinthians 8:10; 10:25.) Nor is his membership merely an entry pass, as when a person buys a theater ticket. Membership means that one has become an integral part of this organization founded with definite religious objectives, including the promotion of interfaith. Hence, for one of Jehovah’s Witnesses to become a member of such a so-called "Christian" association would amount to apostasy.

  • scrubmaster
    scrubmaster

    Thanks Justitia Themis -- take this same article and insert the UN -- this would have to be given the same response. Dozy is interesting in his saying it is okay -- how could this be okay. Especially since membership is not even required to use the library. Dozy keeps referring to people being ex-witnesses -- I am not -- and I will also say this he must have forgot the part in the bible were Jesus condemn the religious leaders for their hypocrisy and they to thought they were doing what Jehovah wanted. There is not excuse for being assocaited with the UN -- NONE period !

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. is, and always has been, and NGO. They did not become an NGO when they joined the United Nations Department of Public Information (UN/DPI), they became an Associate member of the UN/DPI.

    While they never joined the United Nations, they did join the United Nations Department of Public Information as an Associate member, and maintained that Associate membership for almost 10 years.

    The term "Criteria for Association" refers to criteria that would apply only to those who are Associate members of the UN/DPI, there is not and never has been a registrant status with the UN/DPI. The closest an NGO can get to the DPI is through becoming an Associate member. This is what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. became.

    Stating that the WTS became an NGO when they joined the UN/DPI is like stating I became caucasian when I got baptized as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I have always been caucasian. The WTS is an organization. Its basic organizational nature is non-governmental, as opposed to governmental. This has been true since its inception in the late 1800s, therefore it has always been a non-governmental organization (NGO).

    Why is this distinction important? Because the WTS correctly states this fact and uses our mistatement of this basic, fundamental secular fact to successfully raise doubts in the minds of active JWs about our knowledge of this subject. When you are accusing the WTS of wrongdoing, any mistake in speech that you make will cost you hugely when it comes to establishing the merits of your argument to those who are still believers in, and worshippers of, the Governing Body.

    Accuracy of statement is critical to a weighty argument.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

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