:In Russia the people know you don't piss off the establishment, not unless you want a very long holiday in Siberia.
Hey, don't get carried away. It's true Russia is not a fully-fledged democracy (although the current government won the last election for real), but you must have watched too much of Discovery Channel to suggest that people get sent to Siberia these days.
Other than that, the Moscow ban on witnesses was inspired by the Orthodox Church. That the dubs give them good excuses is another story. But even Catholics don't have an easy life in Russia, so I wouldn't depend on the official reasons for the ban as an exemplary act of justice being done that should be copied elsewhere in the world. It's pure, disgusting hypocrisy.
Pole
BUSTED in RUSSIA JW DESTROY FAMILYS
by DannyHaszard 55 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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Pole
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Dr Jekyll
Hey, don't get carried away. It's true Russia is not a fully-fledged democracy (although the current government won the last election for real), but you must have watched too much of Discovery Channel to suggest that people get sent to Siberia these days.
I know that, but they used to and that fear of what used to do is still there in older Russians.
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Forscher
I have to agree with Drew.
That tactic has never worked against the Dubs. It will just reinforce in their minds that they are doing the right thing in God's eyes and cause them to harden up.
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Pole
:I know that, but they used to and that fear of what used to do is still there in older Russians.
OK, but I wouldn't really call it fear. If it was just fear then the majority wouldn't vote for Putin, and he wouldn't get elected that easily. It's a mentality problem. But you're right that the tsarist era and decades of opressive communism play a major role in it. -
stillajwexelder
This is BAD news. I dont care how much anyone hates JWs -it is bad news for all when police can break up a meeting like this. Next they will do the same for a mosque - or church - it is not right
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drew sagan
Drew you are looking at this through the eyes of a free American.
I see where you are coming from with this. I guess my point is more along the lines of the JW mindset not being able to be stopped, mainly because of the way their beliefs are seen as the differance between life and death, obey god or men. People have terrible expierances in the JW, people have not so bad. Would I rather see them go through religious persecution to preven members being made? The answer is no. Harm will be done either way. Remember that many of us who joined the JWs did so not only because of what They said, but also by what WE chose to believe. Life is made up of a number of choices that we all bear resonsibility for. Where will these people go if the don't accept JWism? The minds of such ones more than likely are in the same state many of us where before entering the religion, like a sponge, ready to accpet what somebody else says. If its not the JWs, chances are it might be something else along the same lines. Of course, many will disagree with this, but thats my two cents.
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Brigid
I know that I speak from a lack of experience and a probably amero-centric POV but when I read this I thought 1) Oh great, more fodder for their martyr complex and 2) The poor Russians. Yes, Moscow police tactics may save some from bodily harm (blood transfusions) and overall soul-rape by an American made religio-publishing corporation. But by these tactics? I'd hate to live in a society where I'm afraid of government reprisal for my religious beliefs---oh wait!! I do, actually (reminds self that I have a nice respectable "cover religion" and do not tell many my true non-christian beliefs).
Interesting.
~Brigid
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DannyHaszard
Memorial evening Kingdom Hall protest Man protests Jehovah's Witness teachings
Lowell Sun, MA - 28 minutes ago
WILMINGTON -- Rick Fearon stood outside the Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall just off Main Street last night knowing a daughter who will no longer speak to him ...Article Launched: 04/13/2006 11:39:07 AM EDT
Man protests Jehovah's Witness teachingsBy ROBERT MILLS, Sun Staff WILMINGTON -- Rick Fearon stood outside the Jehovah's Witness Kingdom Hall just off Main Street last night knowing a daughter who will no longer speak to him would soon be inside. That daughter, as well as several other family members, stopped speaking to Fearon a few years ago when he left the church and began speaking out about problems he sees in the Jehovah's Witness religion. A Jehovah's Witness for more than 40 years, Fearon now wants to inform people of accusations that the church does not adequately react to reports of sexual abuse of children, and charges the church's teachings on blood transfusions have needlessly killed Jehovah's Witnesses worldwide. "I attended this congregation and never realized the problems they had," he said. Fearon stood across the street from the Kingdom Hall with about a half-dozen others in the hopes they would make those new to the church look into it more deeply. Those inside the Kingdom Hall were observing The Memorial of Christ's Death, in which they celebrate the death of Jesus on the first full moon of the Vernal Equinox. Those new to the church or not yet part of it often attend the observance, Fearon said. Fearon cites national studies and news reports on a growing sexual-abuse crisis in the Jehovah's Witness religion, which he says has not done nearly enough to keep pedophiles away from children. He also says the churches previous ban on members getting blood transfusions, and other confusing teachings about accepting blood have led to what he said are thousands of unnecessary deaths. He was joined by John Harris, of Norwood, who was one of hundreds of clergy-abuse victims who sued the Archdiocese of Boston. Harris, who said he was abused by Father Paul Shanley, said he settled with the archdiocese in December of 2003. He said he is fighting all religions and cults in which abuse is not adequately responded to, and that he is pushing for federal laws to make it easier to prosecute and prevent abuse. A man who answered the telephone at the Kingdom Hall declined comment last night. ---------------- Reporter Robert Mills Phone: 978-970-4717
E-mail: [email protected] http://www.lowellsun.com/writealetter Letter to editor online formhttp://www.lowellsun.com/contact All Newspaper contacts page
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Dr Jekyll
Ok Ok I see both points of view in the "oppression does / doesn't help their cause" argument.
Having been a dub myself I am more than aware that dubs love this sort of thing. Already there will be talk down the halls about how Russia is clamping down on false religion and the witnesses. With the rumours that last night memorial would be the last one coupled with the news that Russia (King of the north) is oppressing Jehovah's loyal witnesses you can imagine some witnesses being orgasmic over this news.
But then look at this in real world terms. My argument was that this treatment would scare away new members and make the harvesting work REALLY hard work in Russia. Let me give you an illustration. Hard line Muslims.
In the UK and probably the US the government has come down pretty hard on hard line Muslims. Their phones are tapped, there houses under observation and MI5 has its people in the mosques watching what is being preached and who's associating with who. Now then this kind of state oppression of religious freedom might cause a few to convert their ideals into a more hard line stance BUT (<--- thats a big but) that kind of state oppression is causing more people to avoid associating with these hard liners. Its scaring people off, for fear of being associated with the loony Muslim fringes.
This is what will happen in Russia. State oppression good thing or bad thing? My gut goes with bad but there's a small part of me that says maybe it's the only way to stop them.
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DannyHaszard
Story now covered by another Moscow news outlet Police Target Jehovah's Witnesses
The Moscow Times, Russia - 1 hour ago
Several dozen police officers broke up a prayer meeting of about 200 Jehovah's Witnesses in southeastern Moscow and briefly detained 14 worshipers. ...Friday, April 14, 2006. Page 1. Police Target Jehovah's Witnesses By [email protected]
Carl Schreck Staff Writer Several dozen police officers broke up a prayer meeting of about 200 Jehovah's Witnesses in southeastern Moscow and briefly detained 14 worshipers. The Wednesday evening raid promises to raise new worries about a clampdown on minority religions at a time when the clout of the Russian Orthodox Church is increasing. More than 30 police officers burst into the prayer meeting in a rented hall on Sovkhoznaya Ulitsa at around 9 p.m. and detained 14 organizers, Vasily Kalin, head of the managing committee of the Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, said Thursday. Kalin said police told the worshipers that they were violating a 2004 ban on Jehovah's Witnesses in Moscow. In June 2004, the Moscow City Court barred the denomination from engaging in religious activities, citing a law that bans religious groups deemed to incite hatred or intolerance. Kalin said the ban applied to Jehovah's Witnesses only as a legal entity and that the Russian Constitution guaranteed members freedom of assembly. Police said Thursday that the organizers were taken to the Lyublino police precinct for routine document checks after "vigilant" citizens reported the meeting to police. "They were released after it was established who they were and that they didn't have warrants out for their arrest," said Olga Yegorova, a spokeswoman for the police's southeast district branch. The police arrived in about 10 cars while the worshipers were commemorating the Last Supper by passing around symbolic bread and wine, Kalin said. "They wouldn't even allow them to finish the ceremony. There was nothing secretive going on there. They could have allowed them finish," Kalin said by telephone from St. Petersburg. Witnesses from the meeting could not be reached for comment. Kalin said those present had relayed details of the incident to him. Kalin said the organizers were hauled in to the local precinct and released about four hours later without any written explanation for their detention. He expressed bafflement over the incident. "There is so much crime. Do the police have nothing better to do than to break up a meeting of peaceful people?" he said. Jehovah's Witnesses, which count around 10,000 members in Moscow and 133,000 nationwide, are not the only religious minority that has faced pressure in a country dominated by the Russian Orthodox Church. In 2000, Moscow city authorities repeatedly turned down attempts by the Salvation Army to re-register. Siding with the city, the Presnensky District Court called the Salvation Army a "militarized group" -- in a perhaps unintended nod to a character in the popular "Austin Powers" films, Frau Farbissina, Dr. Evil's German adviser and the head of the "Militant Wing of the Salvation Army." In 2003, a higher court overturned the ruling and allowed the group's Moscow chapter to reopen. The U.S. State Department's 2005 report on religious freedom, released in November, said that "some federal agencies and many local authorities" in Russia "continued to restrict the rights of various religious minorities" and cited specifically the 2004 ban of Jehovah's Witnesses activities in Moscow. The report cited "indications that the security services, including the Federal Security Service, increasingly treated the leadership of some minority religious groups as security threats." Criticism concerning the lack of religious freedom has been repeatedly dismissed by government and Russian Orthodox Church officials. However, Justice Minister Yury Chaika recently raised red flags by announcing that his ministry planned to introduce legislation later this year that would tighten control over religious organizations conducting missionary work. "Recently, we have been disturbed by illegal missionary activity," Chaika said at a news conference last month. He did not specify any particular religious groups . -------------- [email protected] reporter covering story [email protected] letter to editor