Sickoflies Asked Me To Post This For All Of You!!!!! Please Look!
by Lady Liberty 23 Replies latest watchtower bible
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SickofLies
I have Farkels post printed out and I've read it a couple times (Thank you Farkel!) and its very good at explaining the whole thing. I've also printed out the explaination by L.L.'s sister on 587 which is also very good.
Ok so I promised to post my finds on the societies agreement with Graysons dates so here we go:
*** it-1 p. 453 Chronology *** "Thus, according to Assyriologist D. J. Wiseman, one portion of the so-called Babylonian Chronicle, covering the period from the rule of Nabu-nasir to Shamash-shum-u-kin (a period dated by secular historians as from 747-648 B.C.E.), is "a copy made in the twenty-second year of Darius [footnote says: I.e. 500/499 B.C."
This is in perfect agreement with Grayson
*** it-2 p. 480 Nebuchadnezzar *** "Second ruler of the Neo-Babylonian Empire; son of Nabopolassar and father of Awil-Marduk (Evil-merodach), who succeeded him to the throne. Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years (624-582 B.C.E.)"
This is actually in agreement with Grayson as well, since they refer to Nebuchadnezzar reign.
So now the society completely agrees with the historical records speaking on the ruling kings, but it disagrees with the historical dates for the destruction of Jerusalem? The same chronicles that have the ‘daily’ diaries in them from the Babylonian kings are the ones that describe the conquest of Jerusalem in 587 B.C.! How could you claim that the Babylonians kept good enough records to take their word on 539 BC and not on 587 BC?
To me when I see the amount of evidence available and now the direct lies I think that no one with any reasoning ability could support the WTBTS record of historical events. -
SickofLies
Interesting points quotes from litature:
"Hence it was in the invisible heavens that the year 1914 C.E. witnessed the fulfilment of Revelation 11: 15… The Bible clearly pinpoints the generation alive in 1914 CE as the one that will yet witness the ushering in of Kingdom rule free from Satanic interference." - Is This Life all there is?, 1974, pp.160&164
"Years in advance Bible scholars realized that 1914 was to be a year of great significance. Bible chronology specifically points to that year, and careful students of God's Word knew that. They expected great changes to take place, and the facts confirm that 1914 was, indeed, a marked year…The London 'Evening Star' commented that…some historian in the next century may well conclude that the day the world went mad was August 4, 1914." - The Truth that Leads to Eternal Life, 1968, p.91 (see also pp.95-96)
"But the Bible had foretold the opposite - that the unprecedented war of 1914 to 1918 would highlight the beginning of 'the last days.' (2 Timothy 3:1) The Bible also provided chronological evidence that 1914 would mark the birth of God's heavenly Kingdom… 1914 A TURNING POINT IN HISTORY" followed by a page of quotes from 'The Scientific Monthly', July 1951; 'The New York Times Magazine', September 27, 1953; 'The Seattle Times', January 1, 1959; James Cameron's '1914', published in 1959; 'American Medical News', November 21, 1977; 'The Economist', London, August 4, 1979; 'St. Louis Post - Dispatch', January 27, 1980 and British statesman Harold Macmillan in 'The New York Times', November 23, 1980." - Life - How did it get here? By Evolution or Creation?, 1985, pp.227-228 (see also pp.229&231)
"In 1914 CE Jesus Christ began to rule as King of God's heavenly government… we considered Bible evidence that Christ returned and began ruling in the midst of his enemies in the year 1914." - You can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth, 1982, pp.141&149.
"Bible evidence shows that in the year 1914 CE God's time arrived for Christ to return and begin ruling." - Ibid, p.147
Hmmm. So my origional question to the elders remains, using just the Bible how do you get to 1914?
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SickofLies
"In that year (1914) 'the appointed times of the nations' were fulfilled, and God gave rulership to 'the lowliest of mankind' - Jesus Christ - who had been considered so base by his foes that they even had him impaled." - Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!, 1999, p.97
"What about Jehovah's people? They had long declared that 'the appointed times of the nations' would end in 1914. (Luke 21: 24) In that year, God's Kingdom in the hands of King David's Heir, Jesus Christ, was established in the heavens. (2 Samuel 7: 12 - 16; Luke 22: 28,29). As far back as March 1880, the Watch Tower magazine linked the rule of God's Kingdom with the ending of 'the appointed times for the nations,' or 'the times of the Gentiles.' (King James Version)…God's 'time appointed' to end Gentile domination of the earth came in 1914 when he set up the heavenly Kingdom. In June 28 of that year, Austrian Archduke Francis Ferdinand and his wife were assassinated by a Serbian terrorist in Sarajevo, Bosnia. That was the spark that touched off World War I." - Ibid, p.261
"As far back as 1876, Jehovah's Witnesses realized that Bible prophecy marked the year 1914 CE as a time when major events would take place that would have far-reaching effects on human affairs. They gave the reason for this fact wide publicity." - True Peace and Security, how can you find it?,1986,p.70
"After going on record that the Bible pointed to 1914, Jehovah's Witnesses had to wait several decades before they saw the outcome. Early in 1914 the peacefulness of the world made it appear to many that nothing was going to happen. But before the summer was over, the Witnesses' confidence was justified when the world plunged into a war that was without precedent." - Ibid, p.73
"In their investigation of God's Word, those Bible Students (under Russell) were keenly interested in the prophecies of the Christian Greek Scriptures related to the 'end of the world' and to Christ's 'coming.' (Matthew 24:3 KJ) By turning to the Greek text, they discovered that Christ's 'coming' was, in fact, a 'parousia, ' or 'invisible presence.' Therefore, Christ had given his disciples information about the evidence of his invisible presence in the time of the end, not a future visible coming. Along with this study, those Bible students had a keen desire to understand the Bible's chronology in relation to Christ's presence. Without understanding all the details, Russell and his associates realized that 1914 would be a crucial date in human history. - Matthew 24: 3 - 22; Luke 21: 7 - 33…There was a sense of urgency to the activity of those Bible Students prior to 1914. They believed that their preaching activity would culminate in that year, and therefore they felt they should expend every effort to help others to know 'this good news of the kingdom." - Mankind's Search for God,1990, pp.353&354
CALLING ALL WTS SCOLARS - What did the society use as the reason for saying the end was coming in 1914 back in the 1800's? Surely they didn't preach the 607 crap back then, what lines of evidence did they put forward to present this? Did they use 607 back then to or not??
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Cordelia
ive augued this loads, and all our points are really good, but has anyone been able to get past the witness' 'well it has to be 607 coz of counting back the 70 years,?' no matter who ive spoke to even with the lines of the kings showing the dates only from the bible they will not listen because they believe the bibles 70 years. anyone has an answer as towhat the bible 70 years were talking about if it wasnt that, i understood it could just be babylonion dominion including other nations such as tyre, and not talking about babylon itself but the bible seems to be meaning babylon?
any answers for that?
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Lady Liberty
Dear Cordella,
There WAS 70 years of servitude for Babylon! What they don't want to admit to is the captives were taken long before Jerusalem was destroyed. The 70 years still fit. They have to! Here is a copy of a thread I posted recently on this very subject. Be sure to look up the cited scriptures. You will find it ALL fits. Even the 70 years! I hope this helps you.
Sincerely,
Lady Liberty
Hi everyone,
I just made this chart for my brother-in-law using the Bible as well as the book entitled Assyrian & Babylonian Chronicles by A.K. Grayson printed in 1975. Grayson is a world renound expert used to decipher the Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles for the British Museum. I checked out this book from the local library. Although they had to send away to a College University for it. A interesting note: the Society uses this very book in the Insight Vol.2 under Nebuchadnezzar to support their dates. When I got this book, it was for the purpose of checking their dates and quotes of this author. As you will see by this chart, they have misquoted him to serve their own deceitful purpose! I included scriptures that support the chronicles. Like I said, I made this for my brother-in-law, but thought someone out there might be able to use it.
Have a great night!
Lady Liberty
The Seventy Years: 609 to 539 BCE
609- Nabopolassars 17 th reignal year. Babylon was dominating all surrounding nations. See Jer. 25:11, 25:17- 26. 27:6-8, 12-13(All the nations will have to SERVE the king of Babylon seventy years.) The 70 years begin. ( Babylonian Chronicle 3- BM 21901)
607- Nabopolassars 19 th reignal year. Nebuchadnessar was not even in power yet! He was only a crowned prince at this time. (Babylonian Chronicle 4 –BM 22047)
605- Nabopolassars 21 st reignal year. Battle of Carchemish , between Egypt and Babylon. Nabopolassar dies and Nebuchadnezar accends the thrown. This is year 0 for Nebuchadnezzars reign. Daniel finds himself exiled to Babylon, as well as the Royal offspring of Jerusalem, the utensils of the house of Jehovah were carried to Babylon. See Daniel 1- 2:1. Jer. 29:1,20 (Babylonian Chronicle 5- BM 21946)
603- Nebuchadnezzars second reignal year. See. Dan. 2:1
586/587- Jerusalem burned. Nebuchadnessars ninteenth reignal year. See Jer. 52:12-16 (There were still lowly ones left remaining in the city.)
562-End of Nebuchadnezzars reign.
557-Neriglissars third reignal year. ( Chronicle 6 –BM 25124)
556- Nabonidus becomes King. (Nabonidus Chronicle 7- BM35382)
539- 70 are fullfilled. Nabonidus is King of Babylon at this time. Cyrus overtakes Babylon in one night. Handwriting on the wall. Jews released from servitude. See- Dan. 5:25-26 Jer. 25: 12 ( Nabonidus Chronicle: Chronicle 7-BM 36304)
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Tea4Two
I get it! I get It! The date is 589bc, and NOT 607bc, a difference of 18 years. So instead of 1914 it should be 1932? Am I right?
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Lady Liberty
I get it! I get It! The date is 589bc, and NOT 607bc, a difference of 18 years. So instead of 1914 it should be 1932? Am I right? EXACTLY!!!!! Sincerly, Lady Liberty
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Justitia Themis
Keep in mind we are trying to find the date Jerusalem fell and the Genital Times began.
I know this is a really serious subject, but, DoubleEdge, it this Freudian or what!!!
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SickofLies
The Watchtower sure does like Grayson
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w80 8/15 p. 11 Insight on the News ***According to the "Star," Kirk Grayson, who is a professor of Near Eastern studies at the University of Toronto, says: "You can’t trust the Assyrian inscriptions because of the hyperbole." Citing one example of inscribed untruth, he tells of a 100-line account about a certain alleged military victory by Assyrian King Sennacherib. But the newspaper adds: "Grayson says that other more reliable sources point out that Sennach[e]rib received a sound thrashing in the fight."
Ancient inscriptions may relate to historical incidents and may thus be of interest to many people, including Bible students. For instance, King Sennacherib is mentioned in the Scriptures. (2 Chron. 32:1-23) But when confronted with a question of reliability, will you accept the words of these inscriptions or the Bible record? Before answering, remember that Jesus Christ said in prayer to God: "Your word is truth."—John 17:17.
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si p. 156 Bible Book Number 33—Micah ***Assyrian
and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, page 73.***
it-2 p. 865 Sargon ***In his annals Sargon made the claim: "I besieged and conquered Samaria (Sa-me-ri-na)." (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by James B. Pritchard, 1974, p. 284) However, that appears to be simply a boastful claim by Sargon or those who sought to glorify him, in which the accomplishment of the preceding ruler was claimed for the new monarch. A Babylonian chronicle, which may be more neutral, states concerning Shalmaneser V: "He ravaged Samaria." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 73) The Bible, at 2 Kings 18:9, 10, states simply that Shalmaneser ‘laid siege’ to Samaria and that "they got to capture it." Compare 2 Kings 17:1-6, which says that Shalmaneser the king of Assyria imposed tribute on Hoshea, the king of Samaria, and then states that later "the king of Assyria captured Samaria."
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it-2 p. 616 Persia, Persians ***Evidence that Artaxerxes Longimanus ruled beyond his 41st year is found in a business document from Borsippa that is dated to the 50th year of Artaxerxes. (Catalogue of the Babylonian Tablets in the British Museum, Vol. VII: Tablets From Sippar 2, by E. Leichty and A. K. Grayson, 1987, p. 153; tablet designated B. M. 65494)\
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it-2 p. 505 Nineveh ***With reference to Nineveh, a Babylonian chronicle reports: "They carried off the vast booty of the city and the temple (and) [turned] the city into a ruin heap." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. Grayson, 1975, p. 94; PICTURE, Vol. 1, p. 958)
*** it-2 p. 410 Minni ***If the Mannai or Manneans were inhabitants of Minni, as some scholars say, then according to cuneiform inscriptions Minni was intermittently under subjugation, first by the Assyrians and then by the Median Empire. According to a Babylonian chronicle, in his tenth year of reign (636 B.C.E.) Nabopolassar "captured the Manneans who had come to their (i.e. the Assyrians’) aid." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 91) But by the time Babylon fell in 539 B.C.E. Minni was dominated by the Medo-Persian Empire.
*** it-2 p. 359 Medes, Media ***The Medes had been growing in strength despite Assyrian incursions and now came to constitute Assyria’s most dangerous rival. When Nabopolassar of Babylon, the father of Nebuchadnezzar, rebelled against Assyria, Cyaxares the Mede allied his forces with the Babylonians. Following the Median capture of Asshur in Nabopolassar’s 12th year (634 B.C.E.), Cyaxares (called Ú-ma-kis-tar in the Babylonian records) met with Nabopolassar by the captured city, and they "made an entente cordiale." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 93)
*** it-1 pp. 452-453 Chronology ***Jeremiah 52:28 says that in the seventh year of Nebuchadnezzar (or Nebuchadrezzar) the first group of Jewish exiles was taken to Babylon. In harmony with this, a cuneiform inscription of the Babylonian Chronicle (British Museum 21946) states: "The seventh year: In the month Kislev the king of Akkad mustered his army and marched to Hattu. He encamped against the city of Judah and on the second day of the month Adar he captured the city (and) seized (its) king [Jehoiachin]. A king of his own choice [Zedekiah] he appointed in the city (and) taking the vast tribute he brought it into Babylon." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 102; compare 2Ki 24:1-17; 2Ch 36:5-10.) (PICTURE, Vol. 2, p. 326)
*** it-1 p. 283 Belshazzar ***In another document, the Nabonidus Chronicle, a statement is found with regard to Nabonidus’ seventh, ninth, tenth, and eleventh regnal years. It reads: "The king (was) in Tema (while) the prince, the officers, and his army (were) in Akkad [Babylonia]." (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. Grayson, 1975, p. 108)
*** it-1 p. 1267 Jehoiachin ***It appears that Jehoiakim died during this siege and Jehoiachin ascended the throne of Judah. His rule ended, however, a mere three months and ten days later, when he surrendered to Nebuchadnezzar in 617 B.C.E. (in the month of Adar, according to a Babylonian chronicle). (2Ki 24:11, 12; 2Ch 36:9; Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. Grayson, 1975, p. 102)
*** it-1 p. 1025 Hamath ***According to an extant cuneiform inscription (British Museum 21946), after the battle of Carchemish in 625 B.C.E. (Jer 46:2), Nebuchadnezzar’s forces overtook and destroyed the fleeing Egyptians in the district of Hamath. (Assyrian and Babylonian Chronicles, by A. K. Grayson, 1975, p. 99)