Memorial

praiseband

I am not a Jehovah's Witness, but my daughter-in-law is. I attended the memorial last night. The speaker quite clearly stated that Judas did not partake of the bread and wine at The Lord's Supper,that he had already left, but even the NWT shows that not to be true. I have read it over and over in all 4 gospels so I could be sure for myself. What happens if someone points this out to him at a future date? This is all new to me, but believe me, I have been doing my studying. It makes no logical sense that not all believers can partake of communion, because they certainly did as a part of worship in the New Testament. Also, the speaker said that John 3:16 states that "whoever exercies faith" not "whoever believes". My Greek dictionary definitely translates to "believes", not "exercies faith". Subtle difference to some, but very significant. I'd like your comments please.

unclebruce

...I attended the memorial last night. The speaker quite clearly stated that Judas did not partake of the bread and wine at The Lord's Supper,that he had already left, but even the NWT shows that not to be true. I have read it over and over in all 4 gospels so I could be sure for myself.

Excellent point praiseband - well spotted. JW's are so indoctrinated to the Watchtower point of view they are often blinded to the obvious.

The emphasis™ on 'exercising faith™' is to reinforce the doctrine that only those active in 'field service™' and 'meeting attendace™' will survive the comming 'great day of God the almighty™- forgiveness and salvation by Grace? - you've got to be joking!

c heers, unclebruce.

MidwichCuckoo

Welcome Praiseband! Gosh - I never really thought about whether Judas partook or not (shame on me), I assumed he did. It's certainly significant if the speaker claimed He didn't and then 99.9% of the Kingdom Hall do exactly the same!

BluesBrother

interesting .... I have always accepted the WT version of events and I reached for my Bible to prove it easily....But comparing these verses (NWT) John describes how Judas was dispatched, but does not say about the covenant discussion ;

(

John 13:25-35) . . .So the latter leaned back upon the breast of Jesus and said to him: "Lord, who is it?" 26 Therefore Jesus answered: "It is that one to whom I shall give the morsel that I dip." And so, having dipped the morsel, he took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Is·car´i·ot. 27 And after the morsel then Satan entered into the latter. Jesus, therefore, said to him: "What you are doing get done more quickly." 28 However, none of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose he said this to him. 29 Some, in fact, were imagining, since Judas was holding the money box, that Jesus was telling him: "Buy what things we need for the festival," or that he should give something to the poor. 30 Therefore, after he received the morsel, he went out immediately. And it was night. 31 Hence when he had gone out, Jesus said: "Now the Son of man is glorified, and God is glorified in connection with him. 32 And God will himself glorify him, and he will glorify him immediately. 33 Little children, I am with YOU a little longer. YOU will look for me; and just as I said to the Jews, ‘Where I go YOU cannot come,’ I say also to YOU at present. 34 I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. 35 By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves."

Luke descibes the covenant discussion thus :

(Luke 22:19-23) 19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: "This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf. 21 "But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table. 22 Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out; all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!" 23 So they started to discuss among themselves the question of which of them would really be the one that was about to do this

.

Perhaps our more learned posters can add something?

Gods_princessssss

Oh thank you Jesus, you are so faithful to answer my prayers.

I was in prayer about this topic last nite, I'm wanting to cast out any false doctrine and cult religion that i've been exposed to. But I didn't want to cast out something that is pleasing to my Father. I was raised a J.W. and left when I was 20 yrs old. for self condemnation issues, got born again 1yr.ago attend CHURCH,(Pastor Creflo Dollar, World Changers Church International) and have been dealing with J.W. versus Church. I asked the Father to give me understanding as to rather they are false religion or not, so much of it was biblically based, but someone's got to be false, both can't be correct. I needed enlightenment. I need evidence. The topic of the memorial is an EXCELLENT place to begin. Because didn't Jesus say that we SHOULD eat and drink of His body. So why couldn't we eat it at the memorial? And then, I quit going like, well 21 yrs. ago to be specific, when I had my second "illigitimate" child and back then they said that "this generation (144,000.00)would not pass away before the end would be here", the annointed class were almost all gone back then and they were all in their later stages of life like 80-100 already. What happened with that. Are their still members of the remnant alive and partaking. surely there couldn't be. So please keep this topic going you are answering a prayer. But remember to back everything up with scripture, I only believe the Word.

Other issues i'd like scriptural comparison on is the issue of heaven and earth, I was taught that we'd be on earth, but my Church says and the bible says actually in some places heaven in some earth, It's like I can see the 2 viewpoints, it's like it's a matter of interpretation, but ours in not a God of confusion. Every time I tell my mom what the word says she comes back with what the word says only she says it means one thing and I say it means another. And then the hellfire thing. Anyway i'll stop there. Post Post Post, i'm needing this

Honesty

21 "But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table.

Their own bible says Judas was at the Last Supper. Welcome to the board God's_princesss. Some of us also became Christians after we escaped the WATCHTOWER Lie. If you will use a modern English translation and read the books of John, Romans, Galatians and Ephesians like you were reading a novel it is soon apparent that the hope for Christians is the return of Jesus Christ. You will also learn that at the instant a person prays to receive Jesus into their hearts and lives he/she receives the gift of everlasting life. You don't have to do anything to receive it. There is nothing a human can do on their own to attain everlasting life. The WATCHTOWER teaches that Jesus is not needed because at the end of 1,000 years humans will be perfect and can then have everlasting life based on their own actions. I get sick when I see the JW's crawling at a snail's pace up and down a street with bibles in hand because they are literally perishing before my eyes.

moggy lover

Hi, Praiseband, and welcome to the Forum

When I was officiating as an "elder" in the WTS, I had this growing perception that they were distorting the NT Greek record with their singular renderings, including the item you brought up, ie the use of "excercising faith" for the Greek verb "Pisteuo". Several years after leaving the WTS, having done a night course in NT Greek at a Bible College [something I would recommend to anyone] I met a JW zealot and confronted him with that same question. Why "EF" at Jo 3:16?

His answer[s] led me to believe that in a superficial way, the WTS had adressed the issue, at least to the basic satisfaction of their followers.

1 His first answer, [after consulting carefully concealed notes] was that the verb "Pisteuo" CAN mean "believe", however at Jo 3:16, it occurs in a particular grammatical form. This he said, is what "careful" translators should look out for, and thankfully, the NWT has done just that. It was a "Present Active Nominative Participle" Impressive is'nt it? Sounds schorlarly. It was this form of the verb that made it imperitive to "translate" it as "EF"

Problem was that the SAME form occurs in the preceeding verse!! [Jo 3:15] I asked him to read his New World "Translation" It had "Believe" !!

2 His partner [probably his wife] no doubt after consulting some more notes, which because I was speaking to the man, I did'nt see, added:" Ah but you see at Jo 3:16 the PANP is followed by the preposition "eis" that is why it is translated as "EF" at Jo 3:16, something that Jo 3:15 does not have." Well there is another problem, because at Ac 13:39, and 1Jo 5:1, 5, the same thing occurs, even their own interlinear shows this. I asked them to please read these texts. The texts clearly say "Believe"

I further pointed out that if such was the case, then why did their own "Kingdom Interlinear" have "believe" at Jo 3:16, whereas the actual translation had modified this to "EF"

It is obvious then that the JWs must confront the fact that the NWT is a deliberately constructed "version" of the Bible so as to make it say exactly what they want it to say. They trumpet the subject of "consistency" only in those circumstances that serve their own purpose.

Incidently, a JW may point out the Liddell and Scott allow for "Put faith in" as a translation for "pisteuo". But even this is nothing connected to "Excercising" faith

Cheers

Narkissos

Welcome Praiseband and Gods_princessss

Oh thank you Jesus, you are so faithful to answer my prayers

"You're welcome, daughter."

As BluesBrother's quotes show, Luke definitely has Judas sharing in the Eucharist, since his "betrayal" is mentioned only after the bread and wine episode. While Mark and Matthew have the reverse order, Judas' presence is implicit too. The institution starts with "While they were eating," obviously referring to the Twelve + Jesus, and insisting that "all" drank. Only John has Judas leaving the Last Supper at some stage, but there is no Eucharist in this Gospel.

Tea4Two

I have a question: Was the morsel that Jesus dipped into the wine....THE BREAD for remembrance?

Because after Judas left, is the occasion that Jesus took to break the loaf and share the bread with the remaining disciples.

praiseband

Thanks for your replies to my comments about the memorial. Just my thoughts regarding Judas being included in the communion - Jesus was showing how he was to die for all of us sinners. Everyone, from Judas who was to soon betray him to the apostles who were arguing over who was more worthy. He spoke personally and straight to Judas and included him in the new covenant even though they both knew what was soon to happen. He still loved Judas just as he loves us who, despite our own best efforts, still sin. We are saved by grace, not because we are worthy. Judas still could have chosen to act differently and asked to be forgiven, but he didn't.

Memorial

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