by moomanchu 18 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
What I would like to know is how come this guy gets a free pass. He has lived his entire life sinning, never Baptized, never went to meetings, never went door to door and gets a guarantee of paradise.I want what he has. When ever the WT thinks he gets it.
Somebody, please tell me why it really matters.
Moomanchu:
Thanks hellrider, But I didn't see an explanation of "being in paradise today" which makes me wonder if the JW's do have it right
No, I don`t think they do. Did you read all the posts? Read Leolaias second last post (nr 4 from the bottom), in which she clearifies the context of the time when this is written, and what the jews all believed at this time. What they believed can also be seen in Acts 7:59. As Stephen is stoned and dying, he cries: "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit!". This is in harmony with what the jews believed: The "spirit" of the OT resembles what today is called "the soul", by the majority of christianity, but not in a "Platonic" way. The jews believed that "something" of the persons (what in the OT is referred to as "the soul", as in "the whole being of the person") consciousness survived death. However, they weren`t able to agree on where this "something" went. In Ecclesiastes and Psalms, it goes down into the groun, the underworld, Sheol. In other places of the OT, it goes up to God in heaven. That`s your clue nr.1. Secondly, there is the other examples of the use of the "truly I say to you"-expressions in the Bible, and similar expressions, see Narkissos post. Also:
Mark 14:30: "Truly I say to you, You today, yes , this night before a cock crows twice, even you will disown me three times". (NWT)
Here is one of the two other "truly I say to you, today..."-expressions. Clearly, the time being part is part of the statement, not its introduction. The same is the case in all similar expressions, these are Narkissos examples:
Matthew 5:18: For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
Matthew 26:64: But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Luke 17:34: I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other left.
John 21:18: Very truly, I tell you, when you were younger, you used to fasten your own belt and to go wherever you wished.
Clearly, these kinds of statements in the Bible, definitely have the "time"-part as always referring to the statement, not the introduction. There is no reason to assume that this is different in Luke 23, in fact, it would be a remarkable anomaly if the WTS` explanation on it was right. It would be a breaking-of-all-rules by the people who wrote the Bible in the first place. I am 99.9999999% sure the WTS` explanation on this is wrong.
Don't the JWs have a bigger problem than where to put the comma?
hellrider,
OK ,I scaned over it way to fast.
Are you guys some kind of scholars or what?
Truly I tell you today, I have seen paradise.
And it involves high quality drugs and large breasted women with no morals.
Could it be that Jesus will see him in paradise on that day because there IS a trinity. And while Jesus, as God incarnate, did not ascend into Heaven until later, God the Father was already there and waiting for the thief? We try too hard to make God into a human with human limitations, but He is much more than that. We should not try to limit what He is able to do, but marvel at it instead!
"This is what Jesus Christ meant when He declared, "the father is in the son," the purpose being that the reality of that eternal Sun had become reflected in its glory in Christ Himself. It does not signify that the Sun of Reality had descended from its place in heaven or that its essential being had effected an entrance into the mirror, for there is neither entrance nor exit for the reality of Divinity; there is no ingress or egress; it is sanctified above all things and ever occupies its own holy station. Changes and transformations are not applicable to that eternal reality. Transformation from condition to condition is the attribute of contingent realities."
(Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 173)
Could it be that Jesus will see him in paradise on that day because there IS a trinity. And while Jesus, as God incarnate, did not ascend into Heaven until later, God the Father was already there and waiting for the thief?
I wouldn`t read anything trinitarian into that particular passage, if I were you. I assume you mean that there is a problem with the statement being "truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise", because Jesus didn`t go straight "home", he first spent three days in the underworld, then was ressurected, spent time on earth, and then ascended into heaven, right? I don`t see that as a problem at all. It doesn`t have to be explained. The way I see it, the point of the author isn`t about getting all caught up in some technical detail about a day (or three), but to show that: a) Jesus had the authoity to grant salvation to whomever he wanted to. b) The salvation given takes effect immediately c) the crucified thief would be with Jesus in his kingdom immediately, after death. The fact that Jesus was somewhere else (in the underworld for three days) after his death, is another story! It doesn`t have to be connected to the Gospel-story. The pieces of the different NT-texts doesn`t have to fit (chronologically, time and space) in my view, because chronology was not what the authors of the texts had in mind. The point was the message the were trying to get across. Of course, in JW-land they would disagree with that. Thank god I`m not there anymore.
truly I tell you today, you'll be in another Watchtower meeting next Sunday.
