Judas Gospel is fictional, just like the 'Da Vinci Code'

by Shining One 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • kid-A
    kid-A

    Uncle Rex, you are priceless! Your reaction to the discovery of the gospel of Judas is nearly IDENTICAL, word for word, verbatim, to the reaction of my devoted, JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

    parents!!!! Your mindset is so indistinguishable from that of the standard jehovah's witness I still cant grasp for what reason you ever left the borg......return to the mother ship rex, they need more

    devoted, utterly closed minded fundamentalists such as yourself!!! Just like a good and loyal jehovahs witness, you have conditioned your mind to reject anything and everything that does not conform

    to your pre-conceived notions of how the universe "SHOULD" be, rather than how it actually is....

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete

    I also find the media's angle very revealing, it reveals the overall public ignorance of the literary nature of all the Jesus stories. There were dozens of "Gospels" in circulation, some that we are aware of predate the Canonical ones and may have been sourced for them. Each had its own provenanace and unique tendency. Even the 4 that the Church chose as Canon, despite the direct relationship they have and having been chosen for their general thematic harmony, illustrate the variety of theological views existing roughly the same time. The G. Judas was a find of importance to those who wish to better understand the formative years of Christianity, not those with misplaced hopes of finding the phantasmic "historical Jesus". Similarly those mining the Canonical 4 for "historical gems" are equally misguided. I find it very interesting how even much secular scholarship often cling to the notion of an historical person named Jesus of Nazareth as if he represents something to them that would be lost if he was in reality a religious literary icon developed through years of editing and harmonization. The image of "Jesus" is so much a part of Western culture that when the facts don't support his existance scholarship resorts to ingenious (but basless) reconstructions of his character that don't require faith to retain him.

  • Midget-Sasquatch
    Midget-Sasquatch

    The CO was in our area this week and some of what he had to say about the Gospel was predictable. How its a renewed ploy by Satan to blind people to "accurate knowlege" and to substitute it with the valueless "knowledge - falsely so called". How the gospel was typical of the gnostics in reversing "good" and "bad". I wouldn't be surprised if a later WT article touches on those very same points.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    The circulation of scholarly information (aka popularisation) is something I have often pondered about, and I think it greatly varies with languages and cultures.

    Here in France there is almost no direct communication between experts and the wider public except through occasional coverage by the media. The retelling is generally good, but limited to rare and isolated "headlines" with little further background. Spots of knowledge here and there amongst general ignorance -- but conscious ignorance. Inheritance of our Catholic past with a strong division between clergy and lay people? Language characteristics, which make practically all technical words (mostly Greek constructs) unintelligible for the vast majority of people? Perhaps a bit of all.

    As far as Bible scholarship is concerned, only very recently have medium tools which have been available in English for over one century (such as interlinears, coded concordances like Strong's, etc.) been published for the sake of people who haven't learnt the Biblical languages. This is just not part of our intellectual tradition.

    Moreover (although probably not unrelated to the above) Christian fundamentalism is ultra-minoritary and mostly foreign importation (JWs being probably the most visible brand). General education is secular, even in confessional schools, and religious teaching in the mainstream churches doesn't interfere with it (practically no "creationist" debate for instance)

    But on the other hand biblical scholarship fails (and often doesn't even try) to influence confessional religious teaching.

    A few years ago there was a fascinating documentary series on TV about the Gospel Passion narratives. Some of the top NT scholars (totally unknown from the public thus far) expressed themselves on the literary formation of the texts and traditions, etc. This raised quite a scandal and many parishioners went to their priests or pastors asking about it. Most often the response they got was "Well, there's nothing new here. If you are interested I can recommend you some books." Actually the pastors had been acquainted with critical scholarship through their training and by their further readings, but they had transmitted nothing of it -- either they didn't speak about it at all out of "pastoral concern" (not to hurt people's faith), or their allusions to it were too ambiguous to be understood. As a result the catechism was still taken literally and historically by most people as in the early 19th century. Without the media shortcut, which brought recent scholarship to the home of average believers for the very first time, bypassing the pastors, most people would have never realised what had been going on.

  • free2beme
    free2beme

    It has been fun watching the Christians try to dance around this one.

  • Shining One
    Shining One

    Good comments as usual, Leolaia. I take issue with part of it though.
    >orthodoxy developed as a response to these dissident sects. For those who study the history of religion, it takes its place among other parabiblical texts that shed light on the history of Christianity.

    Orthodoxy developed a response, (just like they did for any other heresy) they did not develop as a result of or to heresy. See the difference? The foundational beliefs were well established within a few years of Calvary. You can see that in the epistles and the later gospel accounts. Heresies did forced more detailed explanations as time went on. The earliest testimony of the gospel is found in 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 and Paul had already traveled to speak to the other apostles still in Jerusalem to make sure that they were on the same page.

    >Similarly, it is impossible to understand intertestamental Judaism (i.e. of the second century BC) without examining works such as 1 Enoch and the Qumran sectarian documents which are incredibly informative about what people believed at the time. But since the layperson is generally not interested in such things, the media often does not emphasize its true historical importance...

    Yes, I agree with that to a certain extent but you must also realize that Qumran was cloistered and separatist sect. They differed from the pharisees and (of course) the saducees. I believe there is some manuscript evidence of an early gospel in one of the finds? Anyways, the average person likes to hear about mysterious goings on and conspiracies.
    People try to accuse the apostles of some kind of conspiracy but that doesn't 'wash' because they would not die for a lie-true or not they did believe to have seen the risen Lord. Chuck Colson has a good analogy of this in his book, "Born Again".
    Rex

  • peacefulpete
    peacefulpete
    Yes, I agree with that to a certain extent but you must also realize that Qumran was cloistered and separatist sect.


    Much like the early Christians. In fact the similarities are many and specific, so much so that it is often sugested that JtBaptist was Essene or from a sect similar to them. As Leolaia was saying, at least some of the Christian image of Jesus drew from this stream of tradition. Clearly at least some Christians felt (whether historically true or not) that there faith was rooted to JtB.
    They differed from the pharisees and (of course) the saducees. I believe there is some manuscript evidence of an early gospel in one of the finds?

    No, there are many points of similarity between Qumran leading figures and the Jesus character but Jesus by name does not appear.

    Anyways, the average person likes to hear about mysterious goings on and conspiracies.

    Yep like how the world is secretly in the power of invisible spirits trying to deceive us through evil plots like evolution and critical scholarship.

    People try to accuse the apostles of some kind of conspiracy but that doesn't 'wash' because they would not die for a lie-true or not they did believe to have seen the risen Lord.
    This is a tired argument, people die for causes they see as worthy of dying for. The writer of the first Gospel (what ever it was) was deliberately drawing from a well of tradition to create a motivational figure to inspire behavior. We have no idea whether he died for this cause. Subsequent anonymous writers of Jesus stories felt free to reinterpret and reorganize the earlier stories so as to be of value to his community and there causes. This is why the G. Judas, like the G. Thomas, or G. Luke, or G. John were written. Again we have no idea if they died for their cause. To imply that people who accepted these stories and died adds credibility to the stories is to ignore that the Gnostics suffered greatly for their faith as well.
  • Rabbit
    Rabbit

    In Shining One's article...

    The discovery of the gospel of Judas should lead believers to "praise God for preserving the books of the Bible he wanted us to have," Hamilton said.

    Ummm...you do mean "praise" the bishops of the early Catholic church, right ?

    Imagine what the Bible canon would have looked like, if the Governing Body had a hand in "preserving the books of the Bible he (they) wanted us to have...".

    "Fictional" or not... "media sensationalism" WILL cause SOME people to think about the entire concept of the Bible and who it's 'true' authors were. Hopefully they will begin to question the literalness of these writings -- that cannot be a bad thing.

    Rabbit

  • zagor
    zagor
    NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--The gospel of Judas is helpful in understanding early church heresy but should be viewed as false writings and not comparable to the biblical Gospels, conservative scholars say.

    In translation they wouldn't even want to consider something like it because it is againtst their established belief system

  • DavidChristopher
    DavidChristopher

    Would Judas be an example of God's mercy like Paul was?

    Hmm

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