There is more proof of the existence of Jello and it's many uses in gettogethers, then there is of God as a person.
What Do You Think There Is More Proof Of?
by Legolas 64 Replies latest jw friends
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Qcmbr
Proof for God falls into several categories I think:
Testaments of others:
Prophets and eyewitnesses who have recorded their experiences (almost always coloured by their own culture and understanding.)
Universal testaments:
Planets, physics, intelligence and life.
Personal testaments:
Personal experiences observed and/or experienced.
Those who cite no proof for God first of all have to define their version of God to determine what would constitute no proof (i.e. deformed babies would disprove a God who claimed that deformed babies where not part of the design and plan etc..)This rejection of God on these basis would not stand muster in any rigidly logical arguement since each premise has its roots in a starting belief regarding a God.
Now weighing up the evidence what we find is actually that we reject/accept evidences based more upon our beliefs rather than any firm foundation of fact. One persons miracle is anothers coincidence, anothers visit from an angel is anothers budweiser too far, one persons abiogenesis is anothers creation etc..
From my reading there is enough evidence from all three groups that I have observed to argue strongly for God - but of course I start from a position of hope and faith. Works thus far for me. -
dozy
Sorry god people, the "probability" argument holds no water whatsoever. Creationists (and the Watchtower) make the dubious claim that the odds of even a simple protein molecule forming by chance are 1 in 10 113
Why is this wrong? I will let a molecular biologist explain: Given how little is known of the first abiogenesis event, it's pointless to even think about calculating the bability of that event. In addition, Creationist calculations of this probability are built around a number of dubious assumptions which would render the exercise meaningless even if there were a point to it (which there isn't).
- To understand what is happening here, you should use population sizes, not probabilities. Here is a simplified model of the evolutionary history of a protein:
- Another protein exists in a lot of life forms (say, 10 9 bacteria).
- Positive mutation (which increases fitness) occurs in a small subset of the population (say, one in 10 6 individuals). That is, about 1000 bacteria. With such a large population size, the probability of the mutation happening in at least one bacterium is about 1.
- By natural selection, the bacteria with the new protein outreproduce the ones with the old protein. After a few hundred generations, the population size of the new mutation is multiplied by 10 6 , giving 10 9 again.
- Go to Step 1. Repeat until you arrive by the current protein.
Whoa Tiger! I was talking about the odds of a single protein evolving - you have moved down the road with 10 billion protein molecules already evolved and existing in bacteria.The argument that if you buy enough tickets , you'll eventually win the lottery is also specious. The odds of winning the lottery (1 in 13 million in the UK) are astronomically smaller than any of the odds that athiests need to accept.
I disagree with the argument that atheists or scientists who work in this field feel that it is "pointless" to even speculate about the probabilities. They argue because it is impossible for a protein molecule to evolve , then there is no point in even discussing it , and would far start from the basis that there are alreading billions of protein molecules existing inside billions of bacteria and start from there. It involves a leap of blind faith that is far greater than any required of a theist.
- To understand what is happening here, you should use population sizes, not probabilities. Here is a simplified model of the evolutionary history of a protein:
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seattleniceguy
Dozy,
It sounds like you're conflating evolution with abiogenesis. Remember, evolutionary theory does not treat the arisal of life in the first place. It treats change over time. Everyone admits that there is very little evidence of how reproducing life got here. Evolution is about what has happened ever since.
SNG
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XJW4EVR
I think that the amount of evidence for or against God is about equal. What is going to make the difference is the amount of faith you put into one or the other based on its track record.
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Kenneson
"I believe in the sun even when it doesn't shine. I believe in love even when there is no one there. And I believe in God even when He is silent." (Grafitti written on a wall during the Holocaust)
To ask proof of God's existence is like asking proof of your mind's existence.
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seattleniceguy
Kenneson,
That's a nice quote, but the statement
To ask proof of God's existence is like asking proof of your mind's existence.
is totally absurd. Your mind obviously exists. God's existence is not obvious. This statement is like me saying, "To ask proof of my invisible dog's existence is like asking proof of the sun." Trying to get around the lack of evidence by pretending the evidence is superabundant is just silly.
SNG
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lilybird
I don't believe in God as I could never picture a loving god who could create this world and then leave so many to suffer just to settle a bet with Satan..God exists in each one of us as the human spirit..Belief in God has never made the world a better place.. most wars have been fought because of different beliefs in a God .. whoever that may be...
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Quotes
Coincidentally, I just posted this in another thread: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557
Personally, I starting to be drawn towards the beliefs in the deity known as "FSM": http://www.venganza.org/.
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Carmel
Perhaps the following demonstrates the obvious...It's a refrain from a Baha'i Prayer..
O Thou Who art the most manifest of the manifest and the most hidden of the hidden!
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 141)
Carmel