Beep beep,
Well, I'll tell you how you come across to me. You sound like a Watchtower apologist who claims he's not a Watchtower apologist.
Confession me reply to your message RE Richie
by Beep,Beep 84 Replies latest jw friends
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AuldSoul
Blood? I see no reason to reject a clear Biblical injunction. Blood fractions? Not going to get involved with it. Doesn't apply to me. No blood period, my choice.
Beep,Beep,
You aren't supporting your personal beliefs and doctrines here, you are supporting the beliefs and doctrines of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. I asked you how you defend their rejection of blood based on the"requirement" at Acts 15 and permit (whatever a person individually decides) 100% of whole blood in the form of the variously available blood fractions.
The Watchtower Society doesn't tell people they shouldn't drive SUVs, but anyone can make that personal choice. If however, the Watchtower Society told people to ABSTAIN from motorized conveyances and publicly praised themselves for that stand, but then left it up to conscience to decide whether to accept rides in City busses, that would be an example of double-talk—a form of deceit.
In the case of blood, I don't care what your personal choice is, I ask you how you can defend an organization that publicly praises itself for "abstaining" from blood while permitting the use of 100% of whole blood. Double-speak. Deceit, which you said you are offended by. Self-agrandizing praise for doing something that is actually far less than advertised. I recall a Scriptural account of something similar:
Acts 5:1-11—However, a certain man, An·a·ni´as by name, together with Sap·phi´ra his wife, sold a possession 2 and secretly held back some of the price, his wife also knowing about it, and he brought just a part and deposited it at the feet of the apostles. 3 But Peter said: “An·a·ni´as, why has Satan emboldened you to play false to the holy spirit and to hold back secretly some of the price of the field? 4 As long as it remained with you did it not remain yours, and after it was sold did it not continue in your control? Why was it that you purposed such a deed as this in your heart? You have played false, not to men, but to God.” 5 On hearing these words An·a·ni´as fell down and expired. And great fear came over all those hearing of it. 6 But the younger men rose, wrapped him in cloths, and carried him out and buried him.
7 Now after an interval of about three hours his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 Peter said to her: “Tell me, did YOU [two] sell the field for so much?” She said: “Yes, for so much.” 9 So Peter said to her: “Why was it agreed upon between YOU [two] to make a test of the spirit of Jehovah? Look! The feet of those who buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Instantly she fell down at his feet and expired. When the young men came in they found her dead, and they carried her out and buried her alongside her husband. 11 Consequently great fear came over the whole congregation and over all those hearing about these things.I ask Jehovah's Witnesses whether their dogma requires them to abstain from blood and they answer "Yes." They lie in so answering, their dogma does NOT require abstention from blood.
I didn't bring up 1975, you did...on another thread.
Now, how do you account for people in Malawi dying, being raped, having their homes razed to the ground, having their children stolen, and more, all for refusing to accept a polictical party card that costs ¢25 while at the same time JWs in Mexico were OFFICIALLY allowed to bribe Mexican governement officials to obtain a certificate showing that they completed their entire period of military service and that they were now in first line for any draft for any military needs the country might have?
I have read on several other boards where ALL female witnesses are whores. I take exception to that.
I do, as well. But then, I didn't read that. Nor did I ask you to address that. And certainly it is a poor defense and terribly falacious logic to imagine that because there are glaring flaws elsewhere that somehow the existence of such undermines the existence of glaring flaws in the Jehovah's Witnesses organization. My question to you is simple:
How do you justify villainizing a young man for stealing a book (harm from which course of action is very difficult to imagine) while publicly defending an organization that allows some people to die for neutrality while others are permitted to escape imprisonment through BRIBES, lack of neutrality by carrying a document declaring willingness to participate in war on behalf of the nation, and other forms of outright deceit, including the same document that claims that they performed training they never performed and presenting such documentation to obtain government services only available to those who possess such credentials?
Either you were intentionally attempting to deflect from the issues I raised, or you did so accidentally. Let me remind you.
If you have as high a standard of honesty as you claim and you are as sensitized by dishonesty just as strongly as you claim, I invite you to account for the organization's gross abuses against the principles you hold so dear (Malawi/Mexico, lying about what the Bible Students were teaching prior to and after 1914 about 1914, lying about the context of the declaration that "Millions Now Living Will Never Die", lying about the intent of their current policies, lying about abstaining from blood while accepting all blood fractions—which fractions equal 100% of whole blood, etc.).
I already discussed the problem with their lying claims regarding organizationally abstaining from blood and the double-standard applied to Malawi and Mexico. Here are the others in brief:
They now lyingly claim that prior to 1914, the Bible Students were proclaiming 1914 as the beginning of the last days. This is a lie. As late as 1930 the Bible Students were proclaiming that the Last Days began in 1874, that Christ began to rule as King in heaven in 1878, that the Gentile Times ending in 1914 would signal the beginning of the Great Tribulation (which had been moved forward from the previously held 1878 year), and that in 1925 the World had ended. This is not common knowledge among JWs, of whom by far the majority became JWs LONG after 1940. Few of them have time or resources to dig for themselves and discover this lie. Any who discover this lie and declare it to others are shut up, either by threat of Judicial action, by threat of removal of privileges or public censure, or (as a last resort) by disfellowshipping. That is the organization you defend.
The 1919 talk and 1920 publication initially entiled "Million Now Living Will Never Die" is still touted as a remarkable true proclamation by the early Bible Students. In just a few more years, it will be provably a lie in the most exacting sense. However, in contextual spirit it is a lie already. Here is why: (1) At the time hope of life was only held out to those who adopted the beliefs and teachings of the Bible Students. (2) The talk and publication stated in the most unequivocal terms possible that God's date for Armageddon was 1925. (3) The Ancient Worthies were definitely scheduled for return in 1925. (4) After 1925 if anyone died it would be "their own fault." (5) The Kingdom blessings (old growing young, sight restored, miraculous healings) were due to begin in 1925 ("God's dates, and not our own"). None of which occurred in 1925. Additionally, if we accept current doctrine that only those marked for salvation will be spared at Armageddon, there will not be millions who were alive in 1919 who will never die. They lied—to thousands upon thousands of sincere fools whose only error was being gullible enough to listen to liars and the lies they told. That is the organization you defend.
They teach that their policy on privacy in JC meetings is for the protection of the accused. This is a lie. I invite you to demonstrate one way in which the accused is protected by this privacy. Human systems of government know better. The Israelites knew better, the law of Moses specified a public place for trials to be conducted. The Apostle Paul knew better.
1 Timothy 5:20—Reprove before all onlookers persons who practice sin, that the rest also may have fear.
They refuse to allow a victim of a Judicial Committee to openly record the proceedings even if the accused expressly wishes to do so. They refuse to allow the accused to have an advocate that is familiar with the contents of the book young RichieRich stole, they have no one versed in procedure to advocate for them. Incidentally, this automatically creates an inequity between the clergy and laity class, such distinction being defined as a small group that possesses knowledge not possessed by the majority. But regardless, they lie about the purpose for disallowing witnesses to the proceedings and disallowing recording of the proceedings.
I invite you to address any one of these (or each) and show me where it is not a gross example of dishonesty toward the very to whom they publicly claim to teach truth.
I know that you cannot, and I suspect that you won't even try. I understand if your mental image of JWs must be protected from this harsh reality.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
Beep,Beep
""I asked you how you defend their rejection of blood based on the"requirement" at Acts 15 and permit (whatever a person individually decides) 100% of whole blood in the form of the variously available blood fractions.""
100% ? I don't think that is an accurate account AuldSoul. I believe that the four major fractions are not permitted. Red cells, white cells, plasma are still unacceptable are they not?
Let me ask you this, at what point does blood cease being blood? If the red blood cells are removed is it still "blood"? How about if the red cells and the white cells are removed? What if you took out the various salts and minerals, do you still have "blood"?
""Now, how do you account for people in Malawi dying, being raped, having their homes razed to the ground, having their children stolen, and more, all for refusing to accept a polictical party card that costs ¢25 while at the same time JWs in Mexico were OFFICIALLY allowed to bribe Mexican governement officials to obtain a certificate showing that they completed their entire period of military service and that they were now in first line for any draft for any military needs the country might have?""
Sorry the only referenceI can find to the alleged actions in Mexico is attributed to Ray Franz. Do you have a reference I can check other than his? While I'm sure that most here take him at his word I do not.
I'll stop here for now.
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SWALKER
""Now, how do you account for people in Malawi dying, being raped, having their homes razed to the ground, having their children stolen, and more, all for refusing to accept a polictical party card that costs ¢25
Several things could have been done to prevent this horrible slaughter...
1. The WTS could have spent a small amount of their enormous wealth and helped the JW's out of Malawi and helped them relocate.
2. They could have paid the .25 needed for the card and not made a political issue out of it....left it up to conscience.
Just to name a couple of things....
Swalker
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lovelylil
Beep Beep,
You came onto this site knowing we are against the Watchtower organization and yet you get offended when you get told off?
As far as attacking Danny on his looks, you are just proving that as a Jehovah's Witness, you are not a good example of a Christian. How dare you attack the man about his appearance? Would Christ do that? Do you not feel any sympathy for Danny or the many others who were molested as children by other JW members and it was covered up?
Let me appeal to your reason because I will not insult you and I expect you not to insult me: How do you think I felt after 12 years of dedicated service to Jehovah and pioneering and helping all the elderly in my congregation, and helping elders who's families needed financial and other support, when the one elder in the congregation I trusted the most, refused to tell me that there was a dangerous predator in the congregation? This elder had a son too like me, but since he was privy to this child rapist's past, HIS child was safe. But mine was not. I was the victim of sexual abuse as a child but not in the JWs. But do you know how I cried about this? Think about it, I thought my children were safe in the congregation. Never in a million years did I think someone like this would be anywhere near my precious son. I know what it is like to suffer for the rest of your life after having been molested. I know what it is like to feel dirty, guilty, and unclean so much that you try to take your life several times, do you? I swear to Jehovah God that I told my hubby if that man had come anywhere near my son and hurt him the way I was hurt when I was a child, I would have taken a knife into the KH and cut him threw with it!
After leaving that hall we found another pedophile in the next hall. By then, my hubby realized too that our children were not safe. When confronting the elders, they were more concerned about the appearence that everything was o.k. than actually doing something to protect our children. Yet, since they are privy to the information, their children are protected. Now, if we ran into sex offenders in two seperate halls only a few miles apart, are you still going to say there is no problem or coverup? The only way we found out about these men is that true spiritual christians, under the threat of disfellowshipping came forward anyway to protect OUR children. They, the lowly publishers showed better christian behavior than the elders in charge. What is wrong with this picture?
I hope to God that nothing like this ever happens to you personally. But be warned, the goal of the elders is to support the organization NO MATTER WHAT. This includes lying, covering up or any other means.
God bless people like Richie and Danny and everyone else on this board who has a conscience and does not want anyone to be hurt anymore by this cultish religion. And I pray every day that Jehovah take them down soon so the hurting can stop. Please, beep beep, think about what I am saying. I am not lying. And you have to understand the peoples anger on this forum. Most of us gave long years of our life supporting the WT, only to be burned by them and traumatized. If they really were Jehovah's only true religion, nothing like this would happen because they would have true love for one another. Is true love putting someones child at risk but protecting your own? I am going to pray for you also because I know you mean well. But you are very misguided my friend. Peace be with you, Lilly
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AuldSoul
100% ? I don't think that is an accurate account AuldSoul. I believe that the four major fractions are not permitted. Red cells, white cells, plasma are still unacceptable are they not?
I regret to inform you that you are mistaken. I sincerely regret to inform you of that. You have been lied to for years and still aren't aware of it. Cells, plasma, and platelets are defined by the WTS as "major components," not "fractions." According to their dogma, fractions are derived from these "components" and it would be up to the individual's conscience whether they would accept fractions from the components.
100% of whole blood is medically available as fractions of the four "major components" of whole blood. When you collect all the fractions of a components together, you have the equivalent of the component "chopped up." When you collect the medically available fractions of all four components together, you have the equivalent of whole blood, just in a form that renders it much less effective for certain situations such as massive blood loss.
For instance, if I have a pizza cut into 4 slices, it doesn't matter how many fractions I make out of those four slices I still have one whole pizza. 100% of 1 pizza. It is simple mathematics.
Have you never seen the chart the society uses to describe what is and is not acceptable? (Watchtower, June 15, 2004) The lower half derives from the upper half. NO fractions of the components are forbidden. This chart is from that issue.
You'll note that it is entirely personal choice which fractions from any column (or combination of columns) someone wishes to receive. So if you decide to take all the available fractions derived from the four major components...that equals whole blood. But, by any definition, it does NOT equal abstaining from blood. Therefore, they lie when they say that they teach abstention from blood. It is a mathematical certainty that 4/4 = 1. Four fourths equals one whole, no matter how you slice it.
Sorry the only referenceI can find to the alleged actions in Mexico is attributed to Ray Franz. Do you have a reference I can check other than his? While I'm sure that most here take him at his word I do not.
I can give you the home telephone number of Wayne and Joy Preble (maiden name Monette) that are referred to in the first paragraph of the first letter from the Mexico Branch. I know Wayne to be a very trustworthy sort. He wouldn't lie about it, although if he becomes evasive of the question it would be because he doesn't WANT to answer.
He will not speak to me currently, nor will Joy. They are both serving as Special Pioneers in Spanish territory in California. He was my Book Study conductor while my wife and I were attending the Spanish Congregation in Columbus, GA. We knew Joy's father before he died and her mother, and her brother Joe from Ashland Kentucky. We helped get Joy's mother packed up for the move to Ashland after she became a widow.
Very few outside of Wayne and Joy's personal friends would have heard them recount the story of their courtship, the fear of being sent home from their assignment, the efforts the brothers at the Mexico branch went to in order to appeal for an exception to be made for Wayne (at the time, single brothers sent as missionaries were excused from service if they got married—Lord's work first). Very few outside of friends would know the month and year of their wedding. It stretches imagination that someone could suggest that first paragraph of the first letter could be faked. And the presence of the paragraph is completely immaterial to the body of the rest of the letter.
But, if you prefer to get it straight from the horses mouth there is no alternative to asking the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. I would be surprised if they would answer you. So, I am at a loss how to convince you unless you can think of some way to prove it that doesn't involve the only person I know of who ever exposed it to public scrutiny.
I'll stop here for now. Let me know if you want that phone number and address. If you have any elderly friends among Mexican JWs they might know about those certificates.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
AuldSoul
One last note: The factuality of Ray's claim regarding the correspondence between the US and Mexico branch and the authenticity of those reprinted letters has never once been denied by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society or the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses. Nor have those claims and authenticity been confirmed by them.
If it wasn't true, it would be the simplest thing in the world to use to discredit Ray Franz for all eternity. Think about that for a few minutes. An ex-Governing Body member is not average Joe Publisher spouting off about things going wrong from the inside. This is the equivalent of Deep Throat of Woodward and Bernstein fame. If they could discredit his ASSERTED FACTS, they would. That would be the most damning thing possible for Ray Franz. However, they don't even attempt to discredit his asserted facts, instead they attack the character.
But, some of the facts in his book I heard confirmed directly from Wayne and Joy Preble who were in Mexico at the time the letters were written, at the same time the issue was raised. They weren't intentionally vouching for anything Ray Franz wrote, mind you. Just tidbits of their shared history that came up in conversation after studying the Spanish WT, or coming in from service and eating lunch at their apartment or ours, or over a game of Scrabble.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul -
Beep,Beep
""For instance, if I have a pizza cut into 4 slices, it doesn't matter how many fractions I make out of those four slices I still have one whole pizza. 100% of 1 pizza. It is simple mathematics."
Sorry AuldSoul but your example falls short. Regardless of how you cut the pizza it's still pizza because you are not breaking it down into it's components. Cut it as you like that doesn't change.
Using the typical pepperoni pizza, look at it this way. The four components of your pizza are the crust, the sauce, cheese, and pepperoni. Remove the pepperoni and you still have pizza. However if you take away the crust do you still have pizza?
Hence if I remove one component from blood is it STILL blood? Since water makes up the biggest part of blood by volume if one takes away the water does one still have blood. By extension, is that water blood?
So once again at what point does BLOOD cease being blood?
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MinisterAmos
Are you deliberately ignorant?
Look at the chart that AS posted. Components from all four groups are acceptable.
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AuldSoul
Beep,Beep,
I understand your reluctance to get the point, but I will press on. I believe you are sincere and that you want to understand why this is such a big deal to some.
Sorry AuldSoul but your example falls short. Regardless of how you cut the pizza it's still pizza because you are not breaking it down into it's components. Cut it as you like that doesn't change.
Okay, let's carry this perfectly correct analogy a bit further and see if you can get the point. Suppose you proclaim broadly that you abstain from pizza. We will use your pizza "components" list to make the point.
The four components of your pizza are the crust, the sauce, cheese, and pepperoni.
These are the four main components, but each of these can be further reduced. Let's examine the fractions of each of the four main components:
CRUST
The crust can be fractioned into wheat flour, yeast, baking soda, and a very small amount of water.
SAUCE
The sauce can be fractioned into tomato paste (which can be further fractioned, if you like), oregano, thyme, rosemary, and a smidgin of fennel seed.
CHEESE
Lactose, bacteria, curd, water, and oil.
PEPPERONI
I never made pepperoni before, but there is meat, seasonings, and skin (for simplicity).
Keep in mind that you are claiming to abstain from pizza, would it be acceptable to partake of all the fractions that comprise the four main components of pizza, which fractions are derived from pizza—not from some other source, and still claim that you are abstaining from pizza? What is the difference (if any) between the 100% of the fractioned components of pizza—which fractions are derived from pizza—and pizza itself?
The answer is simple and obvious. There is no difference. There is no rational basis I can think of for rejecting this line of reasoning.
But we will follow your line of reasoning and challenge the dogma another way. Is CHEESE, by itself, PIZZA? What about CRUST, by itself? PEPPERONI? Tomato and herb SAUCE? Obviously not. Therefore, WHY (by your reasoning) would Jehovah's Witnesses reject the four major components, when none of them are blood?
Doesn't it seem the least bit irrational to you that you presented an argument in favor of viewing the components of pizza as "not pizza" but you would refuse the four components of blood as an act of abstaining from blood?
If that seems a little irrational, then maybe you can understand why it seems irrational to me that someone could choose to accept 100% of the fractions that comprise the four whole blood components recognized by the WTS, which fractions are derived from blood, and still claim to be abstaining from blood.
If I claim to abstain from dollars but also claim that it is okay for me to accept one quarter, five dimes, four nickels, and five pennies, then I am lying about abstaining from dollars because I accept 100% of the constituents of dollars.
I hope this cleared it up for you. Please feel free to tackle the problem of the lying intent for private JCs, the Mexico/Malawi double-standard, and the current lies about pre/post-1914 era dogma regarding the year 1914.
Respectfully,
AuldSoul