JW vs Orthodox Study, Developing a Verse

by jgnat 9 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  jgnat

  A young man who has been asked to develop a talk around Isaiah 60:22 "how does is this verse being fulfilled today" . He asked me to help, but not just to prepare the JW-sanitized version, but how we might include some, you know, alternative interpretations. I thought it might be helpful to compare how a JW would study and prepare for a study, versus Orthodox (or the highly unorthodox scholarship of JWD) when tackling the same verse.

  22 The least of you will become a thousand,
  the smallest a mighty nation.
  I am the LORD;
  in its time I will do this swiftly."

  My contribution:

  JW version: As we know, the bible always revolves around JW's. Zion = the Faithful and Discreet Slave. In Isaiah 20 the verses a JW would relish over would be verses 10, 14, and 15. The thought that the unrighteous nations would further the JW's cause, and of course, reinforcing that the "persecution" that JW's have endured will be vindicated. Verse 21 would be taken as a picture of Paradise Earth.

  Jewish Orthodox version: Prophecy regarding the Messiah and the restoration of Isreal. HA! Today we can see that in living color. Not the Messiah part, but the rebuilding of Isreal, surely.

  Christian Orthodox version: http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/henry/H23C060.htm

  Christian Evangelical verson: Zion = Israel. The restoration of the nation of Isreal is taken as a sign that this prophecy is coming to pass. Also, just like a JW, an evangelical would take numerical growth of their organization as fulfillment of prophecy in modern day. Verses 18-21 would be taken figuratively, perhaps a picture of heavenly realms.

  JWD Unorthodox version: WHY would there have to be a modern interpretation? Hasn't much of the prophecy already come to pass? A JW would believe that this verse indicates that favorable nations would prosper and nations who persecute the Witnesses will not. Has that happened in every case today?
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  Check_Your_Premises

  An interesting angle would be to consider how to direct this person in researching.

  If they try to address if from the standpoint of how the JW started small and became larger, it might force them to do some research into the history of the organization?

  We all know where that can lead!

  CYP
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  jgnat

  I hate prophecy stuff. People selectively take from it what they want to hear, and it can be interpreted a million ways. Listen to any experienced soothsayer, "I see a green scarf...no blue...no, yes...a scarf, or is it a leaf....does that have any significance to you?"

  I've always thought the obvious restoration of Isreal in our modern times as hard to explain away by a JW.

  Anyone else? Comments? I must necessarily be circumspect, but believe me, you will be helping a young man you all know and love.
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  scout575

  One of the most heartwarming aspects of the Bible are the restoration prophecies of Isaiah. They paint a beautiful picture of a glorious golden age that would exist among the post-exilic Jews in Palestine ( Isaiah 65;17-25 ). However, when we compare those prophecies with the reality of life, as shown in Bible books like Malachi, we find that the prophecies were a lot more inspiring than the 'fulfilment'.
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  peacefulpete

  Any serious discusssion should acknowledge that that section was not written by Isaiah. It is generally labeled "II Isaiah" or "DeuteroIsaiah" as the anonymous author has his own style and theological stance. He was not pretending to be Isaiah. It was only through the luck of scroll preservation that the two works got joined.

  Next, the closing sentence about hastening should not be isolated from the larger passage that they conclude.

  60:12 For that nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

  60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come unto thee, the cypress, the plane-tree and the larch together; to beautify the place of My sanctuary, and I will make the place of My feet glorious.

  60:14 And the sons of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee, and all they that despised thee shall bow down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee The city of the Lord, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

  60:15 Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man passed through thee, I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations.

  60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the nations, and shalt suck the breast of kings; and thou shalt know that I the Lord am thy Saviour, and I, the Mighty One of Jacob, thy Redeemer.

  60:17 For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron; I will also make thy officers peace, and righteousness thy magistrates.

  60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, desolation nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.

  60:19 The sun shall be no more thy light by day, neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee; but the Lord shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory.

  60:20 Thy sun shall no more go down, Neither shall thy moon withdraw itself; for the Lord shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.

  60:21 Thy people also shall be all righteous, they shall inherit the land for ever; the branch of My planting, the work of My hands, wherein I glory.

  60:22 The smallest shall become a thousand, and the least a mighty nation; I the Lord will hasten it in its time.

  Read as a unit the concluding words make sense. They have nothing to do with JWs selling more WTs and Awakes. Rather the conclusion show the earnestness of the author to see the list of blessings take place soon. "It" being all the blessings listed above.

  Next, the "smallest become a thousand.." sentence is like many other passages promising prolific childbearing, so important to the minds of ancient peoples.
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  Spectrum

  How much difference is there between biblical prophecy and the myriad possible interpretations and those of Nostrodamus?
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  jgnat

  Excellent point, Peaceful Pete, to connect the preceding blessings to the concluding verse.

  I often see Paul's quote misapplied the same way. One must read the preceding verses to know what Paul considered relatively worthless. (Hint: It's not "materialism")

  Philippians 3:8
  Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ
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  Narkissos

  Any serious discusssion should acknowledge that that section was not written by Isaiah. It is generally labeled "II Isaiah" or "DeuteroIsaiah" as the anonymous author has his own style and theological stance.

  Actually the latest section of the book (chapters 56--66) is usually considered (since Bernhard Duhm in the late 19th century) as a "3rd Isaiah" or "Trito-Isaiah," a secondary expansion of Deutero-Isaiah (chapters 40--55) reflecting the disappointment of the post-exilic times (e.g. 57:15; 59:2; 62:4; 63:15; 66:1) after the enthusiasm of restoration. The "prophecies" of final fulfillment are to be understood in this specific perspective, as a positive horizon after the expected "repentance" of post-exilic Judah (57:14ff; 58:6ff; 59:1ff,12ff; 64:4,8).
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  peacefulpete

  
  Yes thank you narkissos. Though I'm not as sure as some about it. What is very widely recognized is the 1rst and 2nd Isaiah sections.
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  Ingenuous

  He could open with a couple lines like this: "It might be interesting to start our study of this verse by considering what our first president, Charles Taze Russell, taught about it. Since God's one true organization was selected in 1919, and Brother Russell's views were widely taught at that time, it must be true for us today. If Brother Russell was teaching untruth, our 'faithful and discreet slave' could not have been selected by Christ in 1919. Since we know they were, Brother Russell's views have particular relevance for us today." Then he could quote a snippet from the March 15, 1896 Watch Tower:

  Isaiah 26:14: The first nine verses of this chapter are a prophetic description of the Millennial day,--when the land of Judah has been reclaimed (verse 1) and when the nations of earth are walking in the light (teaching) of the glorified Church--the New Jerusalem. (Compare verse 2 and Revelation 21:24-26 and Isa. 60:11,18-22.)

  Then he could clarify by mentioning that Russell believed the Jews would literally be restored to their "promised land" and that the millennial reign couldn't begin until this happened; The "blindness" Paul said would be imposed on the Jews would be lifted, the majority would accept Jesus as Christ, and the new jewish nation would be the "headquarters" of the New System, spreading the gospel to the unbelieving nations and being used by Jesus and his anointed to express Jesus' authority on earth.

  That would be an interesting talk...